Finding Balance Between Client Care and Sustainability

Jessica Katz [00:00:00]: 

Learning a lot about myself is that I can look like I’m putting the oxygen mask on myself first. And in some ways, I am. But I’ve also simultaneously convinced myself that I don’t need as much oxygen as other people. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:00:15]: 

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm, clarity and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place. I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, I want to remind you of something really important. Most of us highly skilled and competent therapists and health practitioners were never taught about money. Not in grad school, not in supervision, not anywhere. And yet here we are, running businesses that need to take care of us while we’re busy taking care of others. It is a lot of pressure. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:00:55]: 

So if part of you feels anxious about money avoidant or like a bit of a hot mess financially, I want you to know that you are not alone. And I am here to help. Through my free live workshops each month, I teach practical financial skills to help you feel more grounded, calm and confident with your private practice money. You can see what’s coming up and save your spot to join live or register for the replay@moneyskillsfortherapist.com workshops. So let’s get started. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is a coaching conversation with Jessica Katz. Jessica is a mental health therapist who specializes in infertility and she’s a graduate of Money Skills for Therapists from a couple years back. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:01:35]: 

Today, Jessica and I talk about the challenge with her fees having fee raise conversations, but also we quickly move into the structure of her work and just this general underlying desire to just, you know, want to preserve all relationships, right? Just not want to do anything that would, like, cost a relationship. You know, wanting to preserve relationships with clients at the cost to herself. This is a conversation that I think is going to resonate with a lot of folks who are at a place where you’ve maybe already built a niche, you are in demand, you love your clients, you’ve been doing the work for a while, but you’re finding there’s things about the way that your practice is structured that are costing you personally. Today with a conversation with Jessica, we both think about what she needs, but we also lean into how do you work with that caretaking part of you that’s really much more concerned with other people and their needs, and how do we get that part on board to make positive changes that sneakily also benefit you and your wellbeing? Here is my coaching conversation with Jessica Katz. So, Jessica, welcome to the podcast. 

Jessica Katz [00:02:50]: 

Thank you, Lindsay. I’m really excited to be here. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:02:53]: 

I’m excited to have you here. We were just chatting before we started recording that. It’s been, I think, about two years since we worked together, but I feel like we’re on the same wavelength because folks can’t see this, but we’re wearing the same color today. We’re just, we’re twins, each other. 

Jessica Katz [00:03:05]: 

We are, we’re matching. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:03:09]: 

So, Jessica, coming into our time together today, what do you want to spend some time on? What do you want to explore? 

Jessica Katz [00:03:16]: 

I was thinking a lot about this, and I remember when I first became interested in your program, the Money Skills for therapists, part of how you would introduce yourself was a lover of spreadsheets, and I can identify with that. But once I started the coaching program and things were getting real and there were feelings, I tried to say, like, oh, I’m just here for the spreadsheets. I don’t have any psychological work to do. And I learned that that wasn’t true. I had some work. So when I first was thinking about what can I use this coaching call for and pick your brain about, my first thought was something spreadsheet related. And then I thought, why don’t I, why don’t I not fall back into that? Why don’t we really get into some other stuff? So I want to talk about fee raises and what my journey has been like and where I’m getting stuck and where to go next. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:04:14]: 

Okay. Okay. So tell me a little bit then about your fee raising journey and where you’re stuck now. 

Jessica Katz [00:04:20]: 

So originally I had an insurance based practice and as I depaneled, my sliding scale has been pretty slippery. So I had some people that I kept at the rate of their copay. I had some people that I kept at the rate that their insurance insurance had been reimbursing me. And then as I got new people, I was having them come in at my full fee. And I’ve continued to raise my full fee. Every time I make a big investment in my business, I tend to raise what my full fee is, but I usually only have that for new clients. And so I’ve got a pretty significant range of what people are paying. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:05:05]: 

And what is that range? Like, if somebody paying you for a copay, what is that fee? 

Jessica Katz [00:05:10]: 

So when I look at Numbers, I’ve got 18 people paying between $175 and $220. I’ve got nine people paying below 150 in a range truly from zero to 150. And then I recently raised my fee to 275, and so I have two people now at that rate. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:05:37]: 

That’s range. 

Jessica Katz [00:05:37]: 

That’s a big range. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:05:39]: 

Yes. Okay. 

Jessica Katz [00:05:40]: 

It’s a complicated spreadsheet. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:05:42]: 

I bet it is. I bet it’s beautiful, and I have mad respect for it. And also, it tells a very interesting story, doesn’t it? 

Jessica Katz [00:05:49]: 

Yes. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:05:50]: 

Yeah. So tell me, then, more about the emotions that have gone into creating this, like, huge range on these fees. What has made it so that you have some folks who are on their copay and some folks who are less than 150 or at 0? Yeah. Tell me more about the feelings that are happening here. 

Jessica Katz [00:06:07]: 

I think there is guilt that comes up for me when I think about clients that maybe I perceive would not be able to continue working with me, but I feel like this is maybe a little bit of my ego, but, like, I am the best fit for them. And so I actually have had some people who did transition to other therapists who accept their insurance and then come back. And. Oh, I guess the other thing with this is my caseload is bigger than I would like it to be because I have people who I’m seeing monthly, which they identify as for financial reasons. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:06:50]: 

All right, so this is where we’re starting. We’re starting with kind of like a very larger caseload than you want. Huge range on people. I’m hearing this kind of narrative of like, these folks need to see you. You’re the best for them with their circumstances. What do you want your practice to actually look like? 

Jessica Katz [00:07:09]: 

I want to be able to show up to each session with my whole heart and know the stories that my clients are coming in with. Since I specialize in infertility, I want to know each person’s journey and what it means to them and what language they use, and it’s a lot of stories to hold. And so when my caseload is bigger than it should be, I feel like I can’t show up with my best self. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:07:37]: 

So there’s the cost there. 

Jessica Katz [00:07:38]: 

I mean, so many of my clients will talk about feeling like just a number at their fertility clinic, and I don’t want anybody to feel like just a number to me. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:07:46]: 

Right. Yes. Okay. Okay. So, you know, if we were to think about what your practice would actually look like, what is the amount of stories that you can really hold and, like, show up wholeheartedly each week. How many sessions a week is that amount for you? 

Jessica Katz [00:08:04]: 

My sessions per week, I think, is probably in that 15 to 18 range. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:08:12]: 

Okay. 

Jessica Katz [00:08:12]: 

It gets harder when I’m seeing some people less regularly, like, monthly, because that doesn’t mean 15 to 18 clients. That actually looks. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:08:22]: 

Yes, Yes, I was gonna say. Yeah. What’s harder about it, like, the monthly. Is it the logistics of how the schedule is structured, or is it emotionally harder? 

Jessica Katz [00:08:31]: 

Sometimes it’s logistics, I think. Other times it’s emotionally harder where it’s just more stories that I really need to make sure that I’m holding in my brain of what each person’s work looks like. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:08:44]: 

Yeah. And, I mean, this work is really vulnerable work that you’re doing with people. And as you say, when they’re engaging with you, at the same time, they’re engaging with a system that can be depersonalizing. 

Jessica Katz [00:08:56]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:08:56]: 

Where. Yeah, as you say, they feel like just a number. So I’m hearing that there’s a values piece here and something specific about the folks that you’re working with that you need to be able to hold their stories with real clarity so that they get a different experience with you. Like, a wholly different experience, a healing experience, compared to what they’re experiencing with the system they’re navigating. 

Jessica Katz [00:09:16]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:09:16]: 

Okay, so that’s an important piece here of how you want to be doing your work. Okay. The range of 15 to 18. Jessica, I’m going to challenge you a little bit to become more specific. 15 to 18. What does that actually look like? Is there a maximum amount of sessions per day? Are there certain times a day you shouldn’t be working? Like, how do we set up your week so that you’re really showing up as your best. 

Jessica Katz [00:09:40]: 

Ideally, I think it would be for a day. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:09:44]: 

Over how many days? 

Jessica Katz [00:09:46]: 

Right now I have several part days. Like, I work Monday and Tuesday afternoon. Monday mornings I usually have to myself. Tuesday mornings I have with my daughter. And then Friday afternoons, I say, are supposed to be for myself, but I usually end up working or doing administrative things. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:10:07]: 

Okay. 

Jessica Katz [00:10:08]: 

And then Wednesday and Thursday are my. My full. My full days. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:10:12]: 

Okay. And do you like having those full. Like, those half days and full days? 

Jessica Katz [00:10:16]: 

I do. I think it pieces me well. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:10:19]: 

Okay. Okay. So then I’m hearing Monday and Tuesday are half days, and then Wednesday and Thursday are full days. Did I catch that? 

Jessica Katz [00:10:29]: 

But I think, you know, if I’m thinking about it, I would probably want to do maybe two or three on those half days and four on those full days, Whereas right now it might be two or three on those half days, but my full days are five, sometimes six. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:10:49]: 

Yes. And I’m curious for you, that fifth or sixth session, do you notice that there’s like a decrease in quality as your sessions go on throughout the day? I’m asking this from a personal place. I used to notice for myself. Four sessions I could do. I was tired. Fifth session killed me. I’m curious for you, is there a drop dead point like that where you know that there’s actually like a hard limit where you wouldn’t want to go over four because five or six is actually detrimental, or is there some flexibility there? How hard is that line? 

Jessica Katz [00:11:18]: 

I used to do more than six, and so I absolutely recognize I am not the best therapist after six sessions. Okay. I feel like I can mostly hold my own at six, but it definitely takes a larger toll on me. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:11:36]: 

Okay, okay. So four would be much more spacious. I think so compared to what you have been. Okay, okay. And then Friday, if we say is Friday morning also, would that also be a working day? And then Friday afternoon is for you. Okay, so Friday, two to three. I’m just. I’m writing this down. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:11:50]: 

If this wasn’t a podcast, you and I would be spreadsheeting. But spreadsheets and podcasts, unfortunately are not really friends. So if I look at Monday and Tuesday and Friday being half days, two to three. So that would be like six to nine clients in those times. And then Wednesday, Thursday would be eight. So that gives us 17 spots. Right. If you have like three client spots each half day, but maybe you don’t always fill them. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:12:11]: 

But then four clients, Max, Wednesday and Thursday, there’s 17 spaces available in that week. How does that number sit with you being distributed out that way? 

Jessica Katz [00:12:19]: 

I like that. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:12:20]: 

What do you notice in your body thinking about that structure of schedule? 

Jessica Katz [00:12:24]: 

I think it would just be so much easier to plan around all the things that I want to do and how I like to organize my time. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:12:32]: 

Yes. Because, you know, as I’m thinking about this, sometimes something that I do with folks, Jessica, is like a schedule plan where you can really visualize, like, these are my clients spots. Do it in a spreadsheet. Of course, I don’t have to tell you how to do it. You’d be able to figure it out, no problem. But like thinking about time, batching, right? Where it’s like, okay, we make a schedule in a spreadsheet. It’s like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Monday morning, you know, you’ve got the hours marked. But, like, we have that blocked. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:12:56]: 

Tuesday morning is blocked. It’s daughter time. But then we show the spots so that we can, like, really see the flow of the sessions over time. And that’s something that I would encourage you to play with, because what I’m kind of hearing right now with these monthly people, too, is, is your schedule really variable? Like, do you have folks on regular appointment spots or are folks kind of booking into spots that are available? Tell me how you’re managing this schedule. 

Jessica Katz [00:13:17]: 

Most people are regular, beautiful. That I have either weekly or every other week at the same time. I have maybe four or five people that usually I’ll end up throwing them in on a Friday or a Monday. So sometimes I lose those half days. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:13:33]: 

Yes. Okay. Yes. Because what I’m thinking is you would be able to map this out to see. Okay, I always have the same person Tuesday at 2. So week one, week two, there’s always her. But then this is a spot that’s maybe like a monthly spot where it’s like, if somebody wants a monthly spot, then I do monthlies on Mondays at 4. Right. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:13:50]: 

And that’s like the monthly spot so that there isn’t this, like, leaking over into other time. 

Jessica Katz [00:13:53]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:13:54]: 

Because it sounds like that the leakage is happening. 

Jessica Katz [00:13:57]: 

Yeah. That’s where I end up having, like, five or six on a full day when I’m. I don’t want that. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:14:03]: 

Yes. Okay. So now we’ve kind of come down to, you know, a structure of schedule that seems like it’s more. More spacious for you. Like, I’m curious if we think about this schedule and you actually sticking to the schedule of having like two to three people on those half days. No more than four on the full days. Not leaking into that time. Like, protecting your time for yourself on those Friday afternoons. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:14:25]: 

Like, what do you notice in your body thinking about this schedule structure? 

Jessica Katz [00:14:29]: 

So where I get really tripped up is everything can make sense to me. Perfect sense to me. So logical, so rational. But then when it comes to actually doing something differently and having a conversation, I backtrack and I think, well, I don’t actually need that Friday. That Friday afternoon. I think I do, but I don’t really need it. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:14:52]: 

Yeah. Right. Therefore, the massive fee range that we’re talking about, because it sounds like there’s lots of those hard conversations. 

Jessica Katz [00:15:00]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:15:00]: 

Are, you know, best avoided. 

Jessica Katz [00:15:02]: 

Right. But I avoid them in this way of, like. I don’t actually need that. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:15:07]: 

Yes. 

Jessica Katz [00:15:07]: 

I’m fucking. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:15:08]: 

Yes. So tell me about that. Tell me about the part of you that’s like, Jessica doesn’t actually need Friday afternoons. She doesn’t actually need to only see four people a day. Tell me about that part. 

Jessica Katz [00:15:18]: 

What I’ve been learning a lot about myself is that I can look like I’m putting the oxygen mask on myself first, and in some ways, I am. But I’ve also simultaneously convinced myself that I don’t need as much oxygen as other people. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:15:33]: 

Yeah. Okay. Okay. And tell me more about, like, why. Why do you not need as much oxygen as other people? What is that narrative? 

Jessica Katz [00:15:41]: 

That if I take more than I should, it will harm other people and be unfair and I can go without. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:15:54]: 

Okay. If you take more than you should, it will harm other people, it’ll be unfair, so you can go without. Mm. Do you know where that comes from? 

Jessica Katz [00:16:02]: 

Sounds like a familiar narrative in other areas of my life. So, yeah, I think I can. I can trace that back to some. Some stories. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:16:12]: 

Okay. I mean, like, putting that perspective on it, and we don’t have to get into, you know, right into it here, but knowing where that came from. I’m curious, like, are you able to take a couple steps back from that story and where it came from? Can we put a little bit of perspective on it? 

Jessica Katz [00:16:31]: 

Yeah. I think my tendency to preserve or prioritize a relationship with somebody else to my own detriment. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:16:39]: 

Yes. 

Jessica Katz [00:16:40]: 

It shows up in a lot of areas of my life. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:16:43]: 

Right. 

Jessica Katz [00:16:44]: 

And that’s exactly what I’m doing here. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:16:46]: 

And tell me more about, like, the cost of that. What does that cost you? Preserving relationships at all costs or to your own detriment? 

Jessica Katz [00:16:52]: 

At least it does have a cost. Like, I want to pretend it doesn’t, but it. It does. It makes it harder for me to feel like me or to even know what I want, you know, if I’m not taking the time to be curious with what I want because I’m so busy prioritizing what other people want, how do I even know? 

Linzy Bonham  [00:17:11]: 

Yeah. I’m hearing there’s, like. There’s a disconnection with self there. 

Jessica Katz [00:17:15]: 

I think so. Especially when I think about money stuff or what to. What to give myself permission to have. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:17:23]: 

Yeah. Because there. There’s two aspects to this at least. You know, we started by talking about the money, about the fees and this huge range of fees and not really owning. You know, 275 is your fee, and yet you have folks that you’re seeing at 175. You have folks you’re seeing at 150, you have folks you’re seeing at zero. So there’s this huge range there, which I think is indicative of not owning your financial needs. And then there’s another piece here of not owning, I think, energetic needs. 

Jessica Katz [00:17:51]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:17:52]: 

Which is like, you can’t actually see six clients a day and have that be without a cost. 

Jessica Katz [00:17:57]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:17:58]: 

And yeah, you’re leaking into the time that you’re telling yourself that you need to put aside. So there’s a lack of owning financial needs, and there’s also a difficulty owning energetic needs coming up in your private practice. What do you notice talking about this? What’s coming up? 

Jessica Katz [00:18:16]: 

It’s this part that I can do, and then whenever I’m supposed to actually take the action on it, it’s immediately, I’m withdrawing, I’m avoiding, I’m taking back what I don’t need. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:18:30]: 

Okay. So that withdrawing, avoiding, that comes up next. So there’s clarity, there’s insight. 

Jessica Katz [00:18:35]: 

You’re like, yeah, okay, doing that thing again. There it is. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:18:39]: 

Yeah. But then when you go to action on it, I’m hearing then there’s going to be like withdrawing and avoiding. Tell me about the withdrawing and avoiding 

Jessica Katz [00:18:49]: 

to actually have the conversations with some of my. My clients or potential new clients. This is a change that I’m making. I feel guilty, and that feels so uncomfortable. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:19:02]: 

So guilt is an emotion that indicates that we are going against our values. Right. We’re doing something that’s not aligned with values. That’s what guilt is usually trying to tell us. So tell me, what values would you be going against if you are telling people that you’re making this schedule change or that you’re changing your fee structure and their fees are going to be increasing? 

Jessica Katz [00:19:25]: 

Maybe some of that is the therapist training of be accessible and serve and help the needy. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:19:35]: 

And what do you think about that? That training that we get about accessibility and serving and helping the needy? 

Jessica Katz [00:19:41]: 

I think there’s more than one way to be accessible. I think that when people are doing really good therapeutic work, it allows them to be the best version of themselves, which lifts up other people in their lives and actually helps us make more changes in the world, because otherwise we are too burnt out and exhausted to fight to make the world better, to actually help the needy. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:20:09]: 

Yeah, I’m hearing, like, a quality over quantity, like the quality of the work is very important, not just the amount of work. 

Jessica Katz [00:20:17]: 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:20:19]: 

Yeah, yeah. And when you think about that piece that you just talked about about, you know, being able to actually show up and do our best work and make changes, what comes up for you there 

Jessica Katz [00:20:30]: 

energetically, I can See it, that I could do higher quality work with more energy and even bringing in more money into my business, that I can take better care of myself and invest in even more consultation and supervision and trainings. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:20:52]: 

Right, you could do the work better. 

Jessica Katz [00:20:54]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:20:55]: 

Because I will say, you know that like, you’re, you know, your, your target folks that you support, like folks with infertility, I, I, I would have been your target market at one point. 

Jessica Katz [00:21:04]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:21:05]: 

Like going through infertility myself and going through pregnancy losses myself. And what I needed at that time, which I didn’t find at the time, I really needed it to be clear, is I needed somebody who really got it, who could show up and really see me and my story and be curious about, like, the parts of me that were coming out in this and as you say, like, not feel like a number. And I’ll tell you, at that point, I was paying so much fucking money for fertility that clinical fees are nothing compared to the kind of like, I’m like, how many tens of thousands are we talking? Like, that’s, you know, when we’re doing fertility treatments. That’s the kind of scale. So I do remember when I was looking at therapists, like, I didn’t care how much they charged because if they could help me navigate this hellscape of both, like the loss and also the medical system, that was incredibly valuable to me going through that experience. And I had already committed a lot of money. Like, I was in it financially. Money was not the pain point. 

Jessica Katz [00:21:59]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:22:00]: 

But what I needed was somebody who could really be present with me and really get it. What do you notice, like, hearing that? 

Jessica Katz [00:22:05]: 

Yeah, I think that’s exactly what I experience with these clients. And. Yeah, and to the point that some of them would rather see me once a month then, then make a change, but then it, it leads back to my caseload problem and schedule problem. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:22:23]: 

Yes, yes. Okay, let me, let me challenge you a little bit on that. So I’m hearing that if you. Okay, what I’m seeing is this. Folks are going to make their own financial decisions. You have people on your caseload who are saying to you, what you do is so valuable to me that I will see you once a month, which is all I can afford. But I’m going to commit to like, working with you once a month, which is what I can afford, to show up and get the value of what you do, because that one hour a month is having a huge positive impact for them. Right. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:22:49]: 

So they’re making a financial choice there to keep paying you. Is this Folks who are on like the 275. 

Jessica Katz [00:22:56]: 

No. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:22:57]: 

Or 225. 

Jessica Katz [00:22:57]: 

No. My newer people are weekly. I have some 175s who do monthly. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:23:06]: 

Okay, okay. So, you know, folks are making their own financial choices there. We can talk in a second about whether monthly is even an interval that maybe you’re able to do, but I’m devil’s advocating you here. Okay. If you raise your fee, you’re going to have people make decisions to maybe come a little bit less, but they’re going to show up wholeheartedly to those sessions because they’re like, I see Jessica twice a month. I’m not going to catch her up with the drama with my mom. I’m going to talk exactly about what I’m here for because I’m paying 275 for this session, and I’m only going to see her twice this month. So it’s like people show up at a higher level when it’s actually an investment for them too. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:23:42]: 

Right. And so what I. A scenario that I see happening is by asking for the fee that you actually want to need, your schedule is also possibly going to actually rearrange itself so that you are making more, Seeing less clients, doing higher quality work, that 

Jessica Katz [00:24:00]: 

by having these conversations, they’ll make better use of some of this time. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:24:07]: 

Correct. 

Jessica Katz [00:24:08]: 

Yeah. I can think of a few people that. I think that that would be what happens. People. People know they’re not getting a surface level, superficial therapy session with me. So I would say yes. They tend to bring their. Their stories. 

Jessica Katz [00:24:24]: 

And I. I would feel the same way if I were. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:24:28]: 

With. 

Jessica Katz [00:24:28]: 

With my own therapy. The higher the investment, the more I’m gonna. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:24:33]: 

Yeah, I’m not gonna dawdle if I’m paying $300 for this hour with you. I’m gonna be like, here is my list. I want to talk about this thing I said last time. And like, you know, so, yeah, you are asking folks to. Or you’re making it so folks will show up at that higher level. Right. So you’re able to bring more of yourself, but they’re also gonna bring more of themselves when they’re paying a fee that really is recognizing the value of what’s happening in that room between you with your very specific expertise and your personal experience with which you can help them navigate this extremely difficult time that they’re experiencing. And again, they’re already paying a bajillion dollars to be clear for what they’re experiencing. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:25:13]: 

Okay. So how convinced are you that this could actually, like, these things could actually go together, that a fee raise and a schedule shift could actually be something that kind of like one leads to the other naturally. 

Jessica Katz [00:25:24]: 

Maybe then there’s also some scarcity mindset coming in then of what if some of these people, then they. They drop. But it’s still. It’s a financial decision that they do get to make. And I. Yeah, I feel like they do. I know what I do is valuable and I know that I’m good at it. And I know that new clients will continue to come. 

Jessica Katz [00:25:43]: 

And it is okay if somebody I’ve been working with for a while makes a financial decision. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:25:49]: 

Yeah. 

Jessica Katz [00:25:50]: 

That means that I’m not working with them anymore. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:25:53]: 

Yes. What are you noticing now? What’s coming up? 

Jessica Katz [00:25:56]: 

I underestimate myself that even though these conversations are so uncomfortable and they do bring up guilt, that me continuing to fall into those, protect, preserve all relationships at all costs. Yeah. It’s not good for me. And maybe it’s disempowering to them too. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:26:15]: 

Yes. My instinct here is to, like, amplify the pain a little bit. So forgive me for what I’m about to do. But if you think about the cost right now, clinically, of what is happening when you’re tired and you’re seeing too many clients or you’re seeing them in time, that’s supposed to be your time, Right. You’re seeing that Friday afternoon client that you’ve squeezed into the week because you didn’t want to say no, but you’re actually tired and maybe your brain is not totally there. What is the cost, energetically or clinically, of you overstretching yourself like that? 

Jessica Katz [00:26:49]: 

I think clinically, maybe I lose perspective on my end goal, my real end goal with these clients. Because, yes, I’m an infertility therapist. I don’t actually care if my clients get pregnant. I care if they like themselves. I care if they like their bodies. And when I’m not coming in with that clarity, I might be more likely to move into some. Some problem solving that we. We don’t need to be in. 

Jessica Katz [00:27:21]: 

Because I have brilliant clients who know. Know exactly what they should be doing and who to talk to. And the whole world is giving them fertility advice. Of course, I’m not that person. Like, I’m. I’m the person that can ask them how they think and what they feel. And I had someone recently tell me, you know, she thought if. If they didn’t get enough eggs coming from her next retrieval, she wasn’t even sure she wanted to wake up. 

Jessica Katz [00:27:51]: 

And I was able to meet her in that moment and tell her, I don’t care how many eggs they get. I care about you. You know, she’s not just a patient. She’s a human. She’s a full human. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:28:04]: 

And that, I’m hearing, is when you’re operating from your center, like when you’re grounded, you know, that’s what you’re bringing to therapy. 

Jessica Katz [00:28:11]: 

Their worth is not tied to their reproductive outcomes. And their reproductive outcomes don’t change how I see them or view them at all. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:28:19]: 

And that. That you’re offering them when you’re in your best self, when you’re having those grounded sessions is way more valuable than any fertility advice or problem solving that your tired brain might want to do. What if the commitment is to create a practice and a schedule that has you doing that every session of the week? 

Jessica Katz [00:28:40]: 

Uh. Oh, Lindsay, that’s even less than my 17 sessions a week. Oh, no. Oh, no. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:28:48]: 

I figured. That’s why I was pushing you a little bit with this, like, you know, 15 to 18. I’m like, okay, but what is it really? What is that real number? How many times a week can you actually be that present with your clients? How many sessions is your actual limit? 

Jessica Katz [00:29:04]: 

Yeah, we’re probably talking like two a day. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:29:08]: 

Yeah. Okay. Two a day. Okay. 

Jessica Katz [00:29:11]: 

Yeah. To fully know that I am, I’m with them on their story and their belief system and their narrative. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:29:18]: 

Yeah. 

Jessica Katz [00:29:19]: 

And their relationship to their body. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:29:21]: 

Okay. Okay. So that’s 10 a week. It’s kind of like every day would be like a half day in terms of your clinical schedule. 

Jessica Katz [00:29:28]: 

But I don’t really need that much time to myself. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:29:34]: 

Well, this is why I’m focusing on them. Right. There’s a part of you I’m hearing that is self denying. I’m not going to be able to help you correct that. In our 25 minutes that we had together today. This is why I’m amplifying. There’s a part of you that’s very committed to serving others. That therapist part of you, there’s going to be other parts of you that are invested in this. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:29:53]: 

And what I find is when we have that really strong caretaking orientation, sometimes before we can get to the point of being like, I deserve, I need this, I am worthy. We can at least leverage that tendency to still make good decisions. So it’s like I’m hearing you really want to show up really grounded and really present for your clients. Right. And give them that completely different experience than what they’re getting in a medical model where they’re just Being, like, pushed through a factory farm experience. Right. If you’re really honest with yourself, for you to really do that, you can do that 10 times a week. 

Jessica Katz [00:30:27]: 

Okay. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:30:28]: 

This is like, you know, this would be like the optimal. Your optimal practice. You’re seeing 10 times clients a week. It doesn’t mean that you have to do that tomorrow. But if we’re honest, that’s the amount of times that you can really bring that quality of energy in a week. 

Jessica Katz [00:30:41]: 

Right. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:30:41]: 

Beyond that, you’re starting to, like, get a little more stretched. So my curiosity is, like, would the financials of that actually work? Is that actually workable? I’m just going to do some really quick math here. Jessica, I know you don’t need me to math because you’re a spreadsheet queen yourself, but we’re just going to play for one quick second. Your high range right now is 275 a session. Right? 10 sessions a week. I’m going to make that times 46 weeks in a year, assuming you’re not working about 6. And then I’m going to divide that by 12. It would make your monthly average revenue about 10,500amonth. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:31:18]: 

How does that number sit with you? This is revenue. 

Jessica Katz [00:31:21]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:31:21]: 

You know, you would run this through your profit first calculator or however you want to disperse your money. 10,500. Seeing 10 clients a week, I would want higher. Okay. Okay. How much higher do you need or want? 

Jessica Katz [00:31:36]: 

If I can be closer to 13amonth. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:31:41]: 

Okay. Okay. So 13,000. Okay. So we’re looking at $156,000. Revenue would be the goal for the year. If I divide that by 46, that’s how much you need to make a week. If I divide that by 275, we’re looking at 12 sessions a week. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:31:57]: 

12.3. So let’s say 12 sessions. You know, you could always go a little higher. But what if Your practice was 12 sessions a week? At 1, at 275 sessions. How does that sit with you? Energetically amazing. 

Jessica Katz [00:32:14]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:32:15]: 

Yeah. 12 sessions a week. And you can, you know, think about how you want to space that out because, like, a 10 is optimal. Like I said, 10 would be, like, in the best world, you would only do 10. 12. I think your quality would still be very high. 

Jessica Katz [00:32:26]: 

Yeah, yeah, right, Definitely. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:32:28]: 

But you’re doing 12 a week instead of the 15 to 18 that we started talking about. What do you notice in your body thinking about 12? 

Jessica Katz [00:32:35]: 

I think that work would be so rich and so powerful. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:32:40]: 

Okay. 

Jessica Katz [00:32:41]: 

And energizing for me, like I would walk away knowing something really powerful and beautiful happened in this session. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:32:50]: 

Okay. Okay. So for that part of you, then that is really oriented in taking care of others, making sure you’re helping people, has that part of you got the information that if you see 12 clients a week at 275, you’d be doing really incredible work for the people you’re serving? 

Jessica Katz [00:33:06]: 

Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:33:07]: 

And how does that sit with that part? 

Jessica Katz [00:33:09]: 

I think that part I’m on board with and I need to keep pushing my own pain points of when I actually think about the conversations to get there and the changes to get there, it is serving that value and that goal. I’m not betraying a value. I like what you said about guilt being something that says that we are not aligned with a value. And I am, and I want to be values aligned. Yeah. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:33:39]: 

Because the flip side of that, long before I was a social worker, I did some pro choice work. And this was something that I used to talk about on my helpline where people would call in and be having to make a presentation, you know, an unplanned pregnancy decision, and what do they want to do is like, you know, guilt comes up. We’re in violation of a value. But sometimes when guilt comes up and we really think it through, we realize that this isn’t a violation of value. What I thought was the value is not actually my most important value in this situation. Right. So there’s guilt for the part that wants to take care of everybody. But if we actually think about what is impactful work and the quality of the work, this is actually moving you in the direction of your truer value, which is about giving people what they really need during their fertility and like infertility experience, which is somebody who really is present. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:34:23]: 

Yeah. 

Jessica Katz [00:34:23]: 

And I, you know, I’m thinking about all these other ideas that I have that, that might be my number for. For that really powerful, beautiful clinical work. But there is so much advocacy that needs to be done in the world of infertility and helping providers be more educated and trauma informed, helping therapists who might not know how to. How to sit with a client, making a choice like the ones that you were talking about. You know, being pro choice is like so essential to my work. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:34:58]: 

Yeah. 

Jessica Katz [00:34:59]: 

And I would love to be doing some of that too, because I do. I do have time and energy. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:35:06]: 

Yes. 

Jessica Katz [00:35:07]: 

Especially if I am seeing fewer people. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:35:10]: 

Yeah. At 12 clients, you can be doing incredible work and you have time to start doing education for providers, to do advocacy work to reach people in maybe more scaled Accessible ways. Like, it actually frees you up to have a bigger impact in all these other areas. 

Jessica Katz [00:35:24]: 

Yeah. And that’s exciting to think about. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:35:26]: 

Yeah. So, Jessica, coming to the end of our conversation today, what are you taking away? 

Jessica Katz [00:35:31]: 

I am aligned with my values, and I can tolerate some discomfort if I’m feeling guilty and uncomfortable. And I’m not going to be able to have nine of these conversations in a week, but I can probably, you know, if I’m thinking I’d love to do one a month, I think that I can actually do even more than that. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:35:54]: 

And it might also just be an area, too, where now that you have, like, the game plan, this might be something that you bring on some support to help you, like, make that change. Like, whether it’s you work with a coach to actually, like, keep you accountable. I’m wondering too, like, what supports do you bring on board to help you actually stick with this plan so that you can get to the other side and have that extra energy to actually have a much bigger impact on the infertility world? 

Jessica Katz [00:36:17]: 

Yeah, I could see that being something that maybe I bring more into my own therapy or look into coaching. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:36:22]: 

Yes. Jessica, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. 

Jessica Katz [00:36:26]: 

Lindsay, thank you. This was so helpful. I knew it would be. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:36:31]: 

I really. I really appreciate it. It’s like, so, so helpful for everybody when we have these honest conversations. So appreciate you being here. 

Jessica Katz [00:36:38]: 

Thank you. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:36:45]: 

I so appreciate Jessica coming on the podcast today to talk through this piece with me. You know, this question about fees and schedule and having a really hard time doing anything that might end a relationship. I’m sure many folks listening can relate to, you know, that showing up in your practice and in different ways, you know, in the conversation with Jessica, something that it really brings to the surface for me is owning the fact that there’s only so much good work we can do. Right. Especially if you’re really talented and you love your niche and you’ve really honed your skills. It’s tempting to just want to, like, kind of max out our schedules and see lots of people. And of course, that’s a way too to. To make your numbers higher in the short term, but there’s only so much really, really solid work we can do in a week. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:37:34]: 

And it doesn’t mean that the other sessions that you’re doing are not great, but you know, when you’re not bringing your A game. So I’m going to encourage you to think about your own schedule and think, have you structured your schedule in such a way you Know, are you seeing the amount of clients and seeing them at the times of day? Do you have your right maximum set on daily appointments so you’re really doing your best work, or is there a certain, you know, time of the day where you notice that your work is not so good or where you notice that you’re pushing in sessions that ends up costing you in other ways and that you’re not showing up the best in your work? You know, as a different kind of example, I realized when I was in private practice that the sessions I did like after 4pm were just not as good and people wanted, you know, end of the day sessions, they wanted that 5pm session. But my brain works in such a way that, you know, as I like to joke, I get dumber as the day goes on. So you don’t want that last session of the day with me. You know, even if you want that after work session, it’s not going to be as good as the session I’m going to give you two in the afternoon, right? So really owning our individual needs in terms of how we deliver our best work is in service to our clients because they want to have a really good session with you. They don’t want you just like sitting across from them, you know, nodding, having your tired brain trying to do the best that it can. They want your A game, right? So how can you set up your private practice so you can bring your A game and do incredible work with people that changes their lives so they’re getting in 15 sessions with you the kind of changes that they would have to do 40 sessions with somebody else to receive. Because also the math is better on that. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:39:06]: 

People will end up getting more value for therapy. If you’re doing better, work with them in less sessions. Right? So the quality over quantity, I think, should not be underestimated when we think about how we want to set up our private practices. Thanks so much again to Jessica for coming on the podcast today. And thank you so much for joining me today. I’m Lindsay Bottom, a therapist turned money coach and the creator of Money Skills for Therapists. If you are ready to feel more calm and confident about your finances, you should definitely attend one of my free upcoming workshops. Whether it’s about saving enough for taxes, creating stability in your practice, overcoming money shame, or building a practice that takes care of you, I’m bringing you a variety of workshop topics to help you shift your relationship with money and get your private practice finances working for you. 

Linzy Bonham  [00:39:51]: 

Register today using the link in the show notes or go to moneyskillsfortherapist.com workshops. I look forward to supporting you.