Timestamps for this episode:

Tiffany McLain 00:00
Inside of you, there’s so much messaging that you should be ashamed for desiring more.

Tiffany McLain 00:06
You’re not allowed to.

Tiffany McLain 00:07
You’re supposed to put your, your client’s needs first, and you’re not even supposed to have needs in any way, much less financial.

Tiffany McLain 00:14
What a recipe for disaster.

Tiffany McLain 00:15
What a recipe for shame.

Linzy Bonham 00:19
Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm, clarity, and confidence with their finances.

Linzy Bonham 00:30
If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place.

Linzy Bonham 00:35
I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists.

Linzy Bonham 00:40
Before we jump in, I want to remind you of something really important.

Linzy Bonham 00:43
Most of us highly skilled and competent therapists and health practitioners were never taught about money, not in grad school, not in supervision, not anywhere.

Linzy Bonham 00:52
And yet, here we are running businesses that need to take care of us while we’re busy taking care of others.

Linzy Bonham 00:57
It is a lot of pressure.

Linzy Bonham 00:59
So if part of you feels anxious about money, avoidant, or like a bit of a hot mess financially, I want you to know that you are not alone, and I am here to help.

Linzy Bonham 01:08
Through my workshops each month, I teach practical financial skills to help you feel more grounded, calm, and confident with your private practice money.

Linzy Bonham 01:15
You can see what’s coming up and save your spot to join live or register for the replay at moneyskillsfortherapists.com/workshops.

Linzy Bonham 01:22
Let’s get started.

Linzy Bonham 01:23
Hello and welcome back to the podcast.

Linzy Bonham 01:25
We just wrapped up season 16, which is wild to me.

Linzy Bonham 01:30
I love that I get to have these conversations.

Linzy Bonham 01:32
I wish I had started this podcast so many years before I did.

Linzy Bonham 01:36
I never knew that I could just have great conversations and talk to people that I really like and that other people would also enjoy and benefit from that.

Linzy Bonham 01:46
So in order to keep episodes rolling between seasons rather than taking a break, we are instead bringing you a new mix of best of episodes.

Linzy Bonham 01:55
There’s gonna be a podcast takeover from one of my biz besties and a compilation episodes to tide you over for the next five weeks.

Linzy Bonham 02:02
Today is a best of episode, and it was our most downloaded episode of the year and it’s with none other than one of my biz besties, Tiffany McLain.

Linzy Bonham 02:12
In this episode, Tiffany and I talk about money shame in private practice and we talk about self-care, the importance of actually owning your needs and of building a practice that actually supports your life.

Linzy Bonham 02:24
Here is my conversation with Tiffany McLain.

Linzy Bonham 02:33
Tiffany McLain, welcome back to the podcast.

Tiffany McLain 02:35
Thank you, Linzy Bonham.

Tiffany McLain 02:37
I’m so happy to be here.

Linzy Bonham 02:38
So happy to have you here.

Linzy Bonham 02:40
Very tempted to just talk to you about 1,000 other things that are not the topic that we’ve agreed to talk on today, but we are gonna talk about the topic that we’ve agreed to talk on today, which is a common topic between the two of us in terms of the work we do with therapists.

Linzy Bonham 02:53
Uh, it’s the funnest topic we could talk about, which is shame.

Linzy Bonham 02:58
Shame.

Linzy Bonham 03:01
Uh, before we jump into it, I do wanna tell you that I did a workshop recently.

Linzy Bonham 03:04
Some folks listening might have been at that workshop.

Linzy Bonham 03:06
It was kinda like the secret to getting unstuck, and it was about mindset.

Linzy Bonham 03:09
But in that workshop, it was like February, and I feel like it was like dark.

Linzy Bonham 03:12
Everybody was like kinda tired and sad.

Linzy Bonham 03:14
And like, it got like real heavy, and I was like, “Shit.” It’s easy to forget just how heavy our feelings are around money.

Linzy Bonham 03:22
And like, because I didn’t structure the workshop properly, a… apologies, folks at the workshop, to have that uplift at the end, like strong enough.

Linzy Bonham 03:29
It’s like we went so deep in the shame hole, I was like, “Oh, no, we’re in therapy territory,” ’cause it’s so heavy, our emotions around money.

Linzy Bonham 03:36
And like shame, I think, is such a common part of how we experience it.

Linzy Bonham 03:40
It’s, it’s heavy shit.

Tiffany McLain 03:41
It is heavy shit, and I think that, you know, you and I do so much work around this, money and numbers and the fee and the way shame comes into it.

Tiffany McLain 03:49
And we… I think because you and I have been doing this for so long, and we have started with people who are in so much shame, and then we see the evolution, the joy, the ability to save for retirement, the ability to be charging life-first fees.

Tiffany McLain 04:01
We just have so much confidence because we’ve done it thousands of times with our students… Yeah, that it’s a little bit harder to be like, “Oh yeah, but it starts here.” Like, this is where you all listeners might be in this dark phase, and you don’t know about what’s on the other side.

Tiffany McLain 04:13
But Linzy and I do, so we have to remember like, “Oh yeah, this is the… It’s, it’s hard work when you haven’t been to the other side.”

Linzy Bonham 04:19
It is hard work.

Linzy Bonham 04:20
It’s hard work.

Linzy Bonham 04:21
And I think that that shame and heaviness is why folks don’t even wanna talk to us.

Linzy Bonham 04:25
Because, again, we’re, we’re on the other side.

Linzy Bonham 04:28
At this point, I think we’ve had just under 800 folks come through Money Skills for Therapists, so we’ve gotten to like see so many incredible transformations, as you say.

Linzy Bonham 04:34
And like I’m on the other side where I feel like I’m kind of the cheerleader, where I’m like, “It gets easier. It gets better.” Like remember that it gets better campaign for like gay youth a few years ago?

Linzy Bonham 04:42
Anyways, where it’s like just like, “It’s hard now, but it’s gonna get better,” and we live on that side.

Linzy Bonham 04:46
But like it’s really hard when you’re in that beginning place, that really dark place, to believe that there is another side.

Linzy Bonham 04:54
‘Cause you’re like, “No, no, no, no.” This, this is when I hear people say like, “No, no, you don’t understand.

Linzy Bonham 04:58
Like I am not good at these things.

Linzy Bonham 05:00
I can’t do this because X, Y, Z.” It’s a, it’s a tough place to start.

Linzy Bonham 05:04
So let’s talk about why we see so much shame with therapists.

Linzy Bonham 05:08
In your experience, what about private practice brings up shame for therapists?

Tiffany McLain 05:13
Macro, what a big question.

Tiffany McLain 05:15
I think that if you all have ever heard me, you’ve heard me talk about this before.

Tiffany McLain 05:20
I, I think about it in terms of this triple fold complex.

Tiffany McLain 05:23
This is by an analyst in the ’80s.

Tiffany McLain 05:24
El… Ella Lasky talked about this.

Tiffany McLain 05:26
Therapists typically are the helpers in their family of origin, so you’re already from the time you pop out, you’re, you’re just naturally inclined.

Tiffany McLain 05:33
My daughter’s like this.

Tiffany McLain 05:34
She’s mediating arguments.

Tiffany McLain 05:35
She’s stepping in to help.

Tiffany McLain 05:36
She really wants to be a helper.

Tiffany McLain 05:37
Just everywhere, all the, “Can I help you with the dishes? Can I get my clothes? Can I get my brother’s clothes?” And so she ca… kind of came into the world that way.

Tiffany McLain 05:45
And then if you’re a woman, a person of color, someone from a marginalized community, LGBTQ, you then come into a larger system where again, you’re asked to serve, you’re asked to be the helper, you’re asked to be selfless, the martyr.

Tiffany McLain 05:57
We’re just expected to do all the work without getting compensated for it.

Tiffany McLain 06:01
And then all of these people come into grad school, and we’re now in a system with a s… you know, the psychology industrial complex, which again reinforces you’re here to serve, you’re here to help, don’t expect to get paid.

Tiffany McLain 06:12
I’m not here to make money.

Tiffany McLain 06:13
So by the time you go out into private practice and you actually, which you will step in and talk about beautifully, you actually need and want to make money so you can have retirement.

Tiffany McLain 06:21
So you have to understand those numbers.

Tiffany McLain 06:23
By the time you come in to look at those numbers relationally between you and your client in private practice, inside of you, there’s so much messaging that you should be ashamed for desiring more.

Tiffany McLain 06:35
You’re not allowed to.

Tiffany McLain 06:37
You’re supposed to put your, your client’s needs first, and you’re not even supposed to have needs in any way, much less financial.

Tiffany McLain 06:43
What a recipe for disaster.

Tiffany McLain 06:45
What a recipe for shame.

Linzy Bonham 06:47
Yeah, there’s so many layers there, as you say, and like, as you describe kind of us all being in grad school together, I’m like, what, what would be the kind of analogy for that?

Linzy Bonham 06:54
Like, is it like a little cultish?

Linzy Bonham 06:56
Like, what are we doing there when we’re in this little echo chamber where you’re like, we’re like, “The world is bad.

Linzy Bonham 07:00
I feel bad.

Linzy Bonham 07:01
We should help everybody.

Linzy Bonham 07:02
I also feel bad.” There’s just such a, a deepening, I think, that happens in that grad school space where it’s like you might have been like the helper in your group of friends, and now you’re in a room with every other helper from every other group of friends who, like, over-functions and tries to take care of everybody else’s needs first.

Linzy Bonham 07:15
And now you all just reinforce to each other like, “Yeah, this is the way. This is the right way to live.” ‘Cause I think then there’s also, I think on the flip side of that shame, there’s like a virtue story.

Linzy Bonham 07:24
The martyr is a virtuous role to play, where it’s like, “Well, I do these things all day, and I give and I give and I give and I give.”

Linzy Bonham 07:31
And it’s kind of like, you know, I remember Brené Brown talking about, you know, being tired being a badge.

Linzy Bonham 07:37
It’s like that life is about sacrifice and pain, and it’s like, aren’t we being virtuous when we give and give and give?

Linzy Bonham 07:43
So there really is this, like, deepening that happens in our professional training.

Linzy Bonham 07:46
And just by having colleagues and friends who are therapists who are wonderful people, but it’s like we all have the same problems.

Tiffany McLain 07:53
Yeah.

Tiffany McLain 07:53
And we just reinforce it.

Linzy Bonham 07:54
We just reinforce it… Yeah… to each other.

Linzy Bonham 07:57
Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 07:57
And then the other piece that I also see brings up shame when we’re in private practice is that a lot of therapists aren’t good at money.

Linzy Bonham 08:06
This wasn’t our A+ topic, right?

Linzy Bonham 08:08
So we talked first about martyrdom and kind of that, like, self-sacrifice, people-pleasing, caregiving, but I also see a lot of perfectionism, which feeds into shame, right?

Linzy Bonham 08:17
Which is like, “I’m good at things. I’m the good girl,” right?

Linzy Bonham 08:20
“I’m perfect. I stay out of the way.” And, and perfectionism is always about safety, right?

Linzy Bonham 08:24
So it’s like, “I’m perfect. I do things perfectly.” But money is often something that therapists have not done perfectly, and we didn’t start saving for retirement at 17 like we should’ve.

Linzy Bonham 08:34
And we haven’t made all the strategic choices, and we haven’t stayed out of debt, and we didn’t choose a career based on earning.

Linzy Bonham 08:40
You know, we chose a career based on, like, our calling.

Linzy Bonham 08:43
So what I find is a lot of therapists start to, like, turn towards the money part, be like, “Ugh, I’m not good at that. Like, I don’t know how to do that,” and hide.

Linzy Bonham 08:53
Turn back away again, right?

Linzy Bonham 08:54
‘Cause it’s like, “Well, if I’m not good at that, like, I’m not good enough.

Linzy Bonham 08:57
I’m dumb.

Linzy Bonham 08:58
My grade three math teacher was right.

Linzy Bonham 08:59
I should just leave the math to other people.” You know, it’s like whatever that narrative is. “My dad was right.

Linzy Bonham 09:04
How am I ever gonna make a career doing this, like, touchy-feely work?” And then we just turn away from it and avoid ’cause it’s like, “No, no, I can’t do that.

Linzy Bonham 09:11
That’s not me.

Linzy Bonham 09:12
That’s not who I am.

Linzy Bonham 09:13
I’m a helper.

Linzy Bonham 09:14
I’m not somebody who can do money and math.” So yeah, we just kind of get really stuck.

Linzy Bonham 09:19
We’re both avoiding… I think what I’m hearing is we’re both avoiding our needs and our financial needs, but we’re also avoiding the skills, right?

Linzy Bonham 09:26
And the actual work that there is to be done that we all have to do because we’re people who live in a world where money is the means of currency universally, right?

Linzy Bonham 09:34
That’s how we exchange literally anything for anything else.

Linzy Bonham 09:36
Money’s a mediator in most of those situations.

Tiffany McLain 09:39
It matters.

Linzy Bonham 09:40
It matters, and it’s unavoidable.

Tiffany McLain 09:43
I’m thinking about this idea when you’re talking about the skill.

Tiffany McLain 09:45
Like, you, you… when you talk about it, it’s so calming.

Tiffany McLain 09:48
Like, oh, money is a skill that can, you can learn.

Tiffany McLain 09:50
Uh, raising fees, that’s a skill you can learn.

Tiffany McLain 09:53
Something that feels so important to say about shame, and you all know it, listeners, is that shame is “I am bad.”

Tiffany McLain 10:00
Not “I’ve done something bad.”

Tiffany McLain 10:02
Not, oh, this, this skill is not developed yet.

Tiffany McLain 10:04
It’s “I am bad,” and anyone who’s a therapist, which is not the rest of the world, by the way, people, but most therapists, you come from an environment where when you showed up with a real feeling or a real desire or need, you got the message from the caretaker, “You are bad.”

Tiffany McLain 10:20
Not that that was wrong or don’t ask that way, but you at your core are unworthy of my love or my attachment in this moment.

Tiffany McLain 10:27
Un… total negation, which is just crushing.

Tiffany McLain 10:29
So then we all go in the world and become therapists and serve.

Tiffany McLain 10:32
So then when Tiffany says, “Raise your fees,” or Linzy says, “Get your retirement right.

Tiffany McLain 10:35
Let’s look at your numbers,” if we don’t understand it or if we have a desire to do something and we’re not quite right at it, we don’t go, “Oh, that’s, that’s a skill that I’m bad at.

Tiffany McLain 10:44
Let me learn.” We have like, “I am fundamentally bad.

Tiffany McLain 10:48
This is a deep source of shame.

Tiffany McLain 10:50
I’m gonna lose all my loved ones and everybody that cares about me if I go more in this direction.”

Tiffany McLain 10:55
So there’s a lot tied up in these ideas of numbers and our sense of self-worth at its core.

Linzy Bonham 11:01
Yeah, absolutely.

Linzy Bonham 11:02
And you know, when you say that piece about how our needs have been negated as kids, I do think that’s really important to name, right?

Linzy Bonham 11:10
Because something that I find as folks start to unpack their stories around money is it’s like, well, whose voice is that?

Linzy Bonham 11:17
Right?

Linzy Bonham 11:17
Like, who’s in your head telling you that, like, you are too much, right?

Linzy Bonham 11:21
Or you shouldn’t need because, like, because your mom is sick, or your brother’s having a hard time, right?

Linzy Bonham 11:26
Like, once we actually start to identify those voices, I find that that really helps.

Linzy Bonham 11:31
Because even though that wounded seven-year-old who’s telling you that you don’t deserve or that you’re dumb, right, or, like, whatever younger parts of you, once we can start to name, like, “Just a second, that’s my dad.

Linzy Bonham 11:44
And as an adult, I can see my dad has these strengths, but also he has these struggles,” often ’cause of their own childhood experiences, immediately we can start to make space from it.

Linzy Bonham 11:54
But when we’ve internalized it, it’s so deep, and it can feel so heavy and so intrinsic that, as we say, like, it does feel like part of who you are, right?

Linzy Bonham 12:02
And isn’t that the way with shame is first starting to name, like, that’s not actually who you are.

Linzy Bonham 12:06
That’s a story that you were told that you have taken on as your own, but it’s not, it’s not you.

Linzy Bonham 12:12
So I wanna talk about how do people possibly get out of this shame hole?

Linzy Bonham 12:18
And I’m, I’m laughing ’cause it’s such a terrible image.

Linzy Bonham 12:20
Um, I, I should say to folks, I do laugh at times of emotional… Sometimes, like, I, I laugh and I’m like, “What am I doing?” But it’s like the heaviness, humor.

Linzy Bonham 12:29
Humor to cope, right?

Linzy Bonham 12:30
So what do you see, Tiffany, needs to be in place for folks to start to shift out of shame when it comes specifically to what you help them with, which is, like, fees and owning the fee that they need to charge to actually live their life?

Tiffany McLain 12:43
There’s so much in this.

Tiffany McLain 12:45
Because it’s relational, when we’re talking about fees, it’s between us and another person.

Tiffany McLain 12:50
Here is my desire as the therapist, and you, client, I’m going to ask for my $300 rate, and it’s up to you to give it to me or not.

Tiffany McLain 12:58
Like, that brings up all these relational wounds we were talking about earlier.

Tiffany McLain 13:02
Something that happens often is that people will send me… Is people will come to one of my live trainings or have an email from me that really moves them, and they’re like, “I’m so excited.

Tiffany McLain 13:11
I’m gonna raise my fee.

Tiffany McLain 13:13
Thank you so much.

Tiffany McLain 13:14
I’m gonna do it on my own.” Sometimes they do, but more often than not, one year, two years, even five years later, they come back and they say, “I tried to do it, and I even raised it at first, and then I went back and I’m in this, this spiral again.

Tiffany McLain 13:28
I’m back where I was.

Tiffany McLain 13:29
My fees are low.

Tiffany McLain 13:29
I’m seeing too many people.” And it brings up again, this, the shame comes really… It’s really powerful in here, for both what you and I do, Linzy.

Tiffany McLain 13:37
One of the things that… It’s, it’s, uh… Research shows this.

Tiffany McLain 13:40
One of the things that allows people to move beyond shame is having it acknowledged by an other.

Tiffany McLain 13:46
And so it’s so hard for me when therapists are like, “Oh, I got the inspiration.

Tiffany McLain 13:50
I’m so excited to tackle this,” and then they go back and they’re alone, when it’s like one of the things that’s gonna help you move beyond is a community and a framework, like actually having, “Here, I do step one, step two, and step three.”

Tiffany McLain 14:01
The step one, step two, and step three is easy on its face.

Tiffany McLain 14:04
“Raise your fees.

Tiffany McLain 14:05
Here’s what it looks like.

Tiffany McLain 14:06
Go forth.

Tiffany McLain 14:06
Done.” But it’s all the stuff that comes up inside of us as we attempt to move forward in this process.

Tiffany McLain 14:12
And in order to do it consistently and sustainably, most people need a community of people who are on the journey with them, having the same struggles, the same hopes, asking for help, being vulnerable, to counteract what we were talking about happens in grad school, where you reinforce the martyrdom, the, you shouldn’t ask for more.

Tiffany McLain 14:30
All of that is so strong that if you don’t have a powerful community of people who are doing it a different way to undo that conditioning, for most people, it’s, it’s hard, if not impossible, to keep moving forward.

Tiffany McLain 14:41
So one of the things that helps move past the shame and actually do the work is having a consistent community that’s reinforcing a totally different way to live your life and move forward in your business.

Linzy Bonham 14:53
‘Cause there’s so many relational patterns to undo here too, right?

Linzy Bonham 14:56
Like, there’s gonna be so many instances in your life where you tried to ask for more and the other person shut you down ’cause it’s like, “No, no, no, you’re not, you’re not my friend who asks for their needs. You’re my friend who listens to me,” right?

Linzy Bonham 15:07
Like, there’s all of these ways that this role has been reinforced and that we reinforce these roles, right, with the relationships that we’ve built.

Linzy Bonham 15:12
We tend to build relationships that keep us in this role.

Linzy Bonham 15:15
And so what I’m hearing is, you know, in community you now have dozens of new relationships with people who are like, “Yes, go you.

Linzy Bonham 15:25
It’s scary.

Linzy Bonham 15:26
I know.

Linzy Bonham 15:27
I did it too.” Or like, you know, like, “Breathe through it.” Like, you’re gonna be getting people who are actually cheering for you for stepping up and owning your needs rather than people who are like, “Oh, that seems high.

Linzy Bonham 15:38
Are you sure you wanna do that?” ‘Cause that’s the norm.

Linzy Bonham 15:40
That is what people will get, right?

Linzy Bonham 15:42
Like if we talk about fees, I experienced that when I raised my fee to $150, right?

Linzy Bonham 15:46
People being like, “Oh, oh, wow, you’re charging $150. Oh.” Like, you know, lots, lots of subtext there.

Linzy Bonham 15:54
And that was only $150.

Linzy Bonham 15:55
It was a few years ago, but that’s not, that’s not a premium fee, and that’s not me owning what it takes to live in like San Francisco or New York, right?

Linzy Bonham 16:01
Which you need to be charging a hell of a lot more than $150.

Linzy Bonham 16:04
So yes, th… I’m hearing that, like, there’s a chance here to rewrite so many of these relationships.

Linzy Bonham 16:10
But it’s almost like I’m thinking like you’re rewriting thousands of interactions, right?

Linzy Bonham 16:14
You have to overwrite thousands of interactions.

Linzy Bonham 16:16
So the more relationships you can have that reinforce this, the better.

Tiffany McLain 16:20
You know what?

Tiffany McLain 16:20
As you’re talking, that, that’s absolutely right, and it makes me think about one of the things that’s so insidious for therapists.

Tiffany McLain 16:26
One of the things that makes it so hard, and you and I, I’m sure both encounter this, is that we should already know.

Tiffany McLain 16:31
It comes back to like we’re therapists.

Tiffany McLain 16:33
We don’t need mindset work.

Tiffany McLain 16:34
We, we already… we can just do it ourselves.

Tiffany McLain 16:35
So even doing something like investing in a program to get help to move forward.

Tiffany McLain 16:40
We’re happy learning EMDR.

Tiffany McLain 16:41
We’re happy learning like, um, a new skill set, IFS.

Tiffany McLain 16:44
But when it comes to like, “Oh, I need help with my own thinking, my own relational dynamic, and how it relates to money,” there’s so much shame in even admitting I need help, and I’m gonna… I actually am gonna step into a community and get help.

Tiffany McLain 16:56
Do you notice that with people considering coming to work with you?

Linzy Bonham 16:59
Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 17:00
And, and what it’s making me think of is I remember a meme.

Linzy Bonham 17:04
Back when I was on social media, I remember a meme crossing my, my path at some point that said something like, “Hyper-independence is a trauma response.”

Linzy Bonham 17:11
And it makes me think about that, right?

Linzy Bonham 17:13
Like, what are we doing when we’re like, “No, no, no, I can do it by myself”?

Linzy Bonham 17:17
Where did we learn that from that we have to do it by ourself or that it’s better to do it by yourself, you know?

Linzy Bonham 17:21
And usually that’s where it is, like that over-functioning, “No, no, I take care of other people.

Linzy Bonham 17:25
Nobody takes care of me.

Linzy Bonham 17:27
I don’t need help.

Linzy Bonham 17:27
I don’t have needs.” Often, I think that what can seem like independence is actually just living out those stories in a way that you’re trying to make empowering.

Tiffany McLain 17:37
I think you’re right on.

Tiffany McLain 17:38
Uh, uh, I, I’m gonna put you on the spot ’cause I don’t have the answer there, I don’t think.

Tiffany McLain 17:41
Why do you think that us therapists feel so ready to go get a Gottman trai… Gottman training?

Tiffany McLain 17:47
They’re not scared to get help in that realm, but when it comes to, like, raising fees or looking at their actual numbers, it, then it becomes like, “I can do it on my own,” hyper d… independence.

Tiffany McLain 17:57
Why?

Linzy Bonham 17:58
Because it’s for other people.

Linzy Bonham 17:59
We’ll do it for other people.

Linzy Bonham 18:01
Right?

Linzy Bonham 18:01
Like I’ll increase my clinical skills to help Nancy and Fred, who I can like, I’m like, “Oh, I love them.

Linzy Bonham 18:08
My… they’re my clients, you know?

Linzy Bonham 18:09
They’re struggling with these things.

Linzy Bonham 18:10
If I only build these skills, I can help this person,” right?

Linzy Bonham 18:13
I think this is where therapists, we’re so quick and it’s so much easier to invest in our training, ’cause it’s for our clients, right?

Linzy Bonham 18:19
It’s for somebody else.

Linzy Bonham 18:20
It’s, it’s a measurable thing that we can do for somebody else that makes us more valuable to them, prolongs the relationship.

Linzy Bonham 18:26
Looking at your fees and looking at building financial skills is about owning your own needs, and it’s about owning the fact that you’re running a business.

Linzy Bonham 18:34
You’re not just helping people because you’re a really good person, which you are, but you also, as we’ve talked about, need to save for retirement and pay your mortgage and all those kinds of things.

Linzy Bonham 18:42
So I’m playing with the idea right now of kind of like regularizing the way that we offer certain courses.

Linzy Bonham 18:48
So Tiffany, you and I have built our businesses in the influencer model, which I have a lot of feelings about.

Linzy Bonham 18:56
One of my good friends, whenever he calls me an influencer, I have the desire to do violence to him, but he’s… it’s… it’s… he’s calling me out and it’s fair.

Linzy Bonham 19:02
So I’ve been thinking about moving into more of that, like a standard education model where it’s like we always run cohorts here and here, right?

Linzy Bonham 19:08
And it’s like, “Here’s our brochure. Here’s what we do.” Kind of like a college would do, right?

Linzy Bonham 19:12
But one of the things that Gemini suggested to me as I was thinking about this is have a certification that people could get that they could display on their website. But nobody, Tiffany, is gonna display, “I took Money Skills for Therapists,” right?

Linzy Bonham 19:26
‘Cause what is that saying?

Linzy Bonham 19:27
It’s saying that I own the fact that I run a business and I have financial needs, and I’ve owned my own financial needs.

Linzy Bonham 19:33
Like, nobody’s gonna say that to clients.

Linzy Bonham 19:35
Like, it’s not good for marketing, first of all, but it’s also like it’s almost counter to what we’re doing as therapists, which is like it’s, you know, I’m here for you.

Linzy Bonham 19:42
This is all about you.

Linzy Bonham 19:43
And same with you.

Linzy Bonham 19:43
Nobody’s gonna, like, put a thing on their website being like, “I learned how to charge premium fees” ’cause it’s not for them.

Linzy Bonham 19:49
It’s for you.

Linzy Bonham 19:50
And I, I think that that’s 100% the difference is it’s like it’s so easy for us to do things for other people, and it’s much harder for us to actually just own that we have needs.

Linzy Bonham 20:00
And we need to learn skills for us so that we can be okay, so we can take care of the people that we love but also so we can retire and we can go on vacation.

Linzy Bonham 20:08
That, I think, is very hard for many therapists to own.

Tiffany McLain 20:11
This is where you’re gonna have to soften my language here, Linzy, with your kindhearted ways.

Tiffany McLain 20:16
The irony in this of a therapist who is like, “I’m gonna really help you grow, my client,” meanwhile neglecting my own needs, my own desires, my own financial, all of it, security.

Tiffany McLain 20:30
It’s a f… farce.

Tiffany McLain 20:32
Like, m… I have values for growth and change and financial security.

Tiffany McLain 20:35
I want all of this for you, my client, but I am not doing it for myself.

Tiffany McLain 20:39
I cannot actually look at my financial situation, see what I need to retire, and then enact fees in my business that allow me to actually have a life to take care of me and my children.

Tiffany McLain 20:48
I don’t believe as a therapist you can truly do your best work if you’re overwhelmed, exhausted, you have no retirement.

Tiffany McLain 20:54
Even if you’re telling yourself it’s okay but you’re not looking at the reality, then you are, you are in a fantasy and you’re not truly doing the best work for your clients by any means.

Linzy Bonham 21:02
The way that I think about it is you’re not walking the talk, right?

Linzy Bonham 21:06
Which is uncomfortable.

Linzy Bonham 21:07
It’s uncomfortable to acknowledge that you’re not actually doing what you would help somebody else do, right?

Linzy Bonham 21:12
But I think that it’s a gift to yourself and your clients when you are in integrity, and they see it and they feel it from you, right?

Linzy Bonham 21:18
Like, I have worked with health practitioners before who are like, “Oh, yeah, I can just squeeze you in at noon on Thursday.”

Linzy Bonham 21:24
And, like, I can see their book.

Linzy Bonham 21:25
I see they’re, like, squeezing me into their lunch hour, right?

Linzy Bonham 21:27
And I’m like, as a client, I can feel that.

Linzy Bonham 21:29
Even though they’re trying to help me, I can feel that they’re harming themself to help me, and that’s, that’s in our relationship.

Linzy Bonham 21:34
And your clients can feel it from you, too, right?

Linzy Bonham 21:36
As therapists, our clients can feel from us when we’re tired.

Linzy Bonham 21:39
They can tell when we’re distracted.

Linzy Bonham 21:41
They, they can tell when maybe we need a break, right?

Linzy Bonham 21:44
And so I think we have a fantasy that we present as the perfect polished version of ourself, that perfect therapist version.

Linzy Bonham 21:52
And you, we… you wear your mask.

Linzy Bonham 21:53
I’m, I’m sure your mask is pretty good.

Linzy Bonham 21:55
But our clients, especially the ones who get to know us, like, they, they can feel the cracks.

Linzy Bonham 21:58
They feel your energy.

Linzy Bonham 21:59
You’re sitting with them in close relationship for an hour at a time.

Linzy Bonham 22:04
They can feel what’s coming from you.

Linzy Bonham 22:06
And I think that, yeah, we need to stop pretending that they can’t, ’cause we’re not doing them any service.

Linzy Bonham 22:11
If people have to start at that place where it’s all about your client, then I’ll say you’re doing your client a disservice when you’re not taking care of yourself.

Linzy Bonham 22:17
And so for folks who, who can’t hear the second, hear the first.

Linzy Bonham 22:21
It is impacting your clinical work.

Linzy Bonham 22:23
But more importantly, and for the people who love you and for your kids who actually need you, right?

Linzy Bonham 22:27
Like, we always think that our clients need us, but it wasn’t until I had a kid that I’m like, “No, he actually needs me.”

Linzy Bonham 22:31
Like, biologically, he needs me.

Linzy Bonham 22:34
The people who really rely on you in your life are also being impacted when you’re not taking care of your financial needs, right?

Linzy Bonham 22:39
So your clients are impacted, your friends and family are impacted, and you are impacted, right?

Linzy Bonham 22:44
So whichever one of those can be a motivator, use it to start actually looking at your numbers and owning your needs and being honest about what you need to be a human in this very expensive world that we live in.

Tiffany McLain 22:54
That’s beautiful.

Tiffany McLain 22:55
Thank…

Linzy Bonham 22:55
You… How’d I do?

Tiffany McLain 22:56
You did so well.

Linzy Bonham 22:57
I brought it… Yes… from, like, an eight down to, like, a four or three.

Linzy Bonham 23:00
But I, I give…

Tiffany McLain 23:01
You, like, a six.

Tiffany McLain 23:02
You said some spicy shit, but you said it so calmly.

Tiffany McLain 23:05
I did.

Tiffany McLain 23:05
I could lean in.

Tiffany McLain 23:06
Like, that’s what… I could hear you.

Tiffany McLain 23:08
Yeah.

Tiffany McLain 23:09
That’s absolutely right.

Tiffany McLain 23:10
And I’m sure you find with your students, and I find with my students, hands down, that when they actually get clear about their numbers, start implementing it in their practice, reduce their caseload and are now charging life-first fees, they’re showing up more boldly, more honest… more honestly in integrity, and their clients often stay… Yes, even with the fee raise because they’re like, “Who is this person I haven’t… never had access to?”

Linzy Bonham 23:33
Yes.

Tiffany McLain 23:33
Or even often the client will say, “This is what it felt like at the beginning of our treatment,” but it hasn’t felt like this in months or years because the therapist w… if we’re not taking care of ourselves, if we’re resentful, overwhelmed, burdened, we’re not really showing up for our clients, and they feel it, like you said.

Tiffany McLain 23:47
And they also feel the other side when you are like, “Oh, my money’s going into retirement. Oh, I’m earning enough to, like, be done at 2:00 so I can pick my kid up from school.” That joy, that presence, that energy comes right back into the work.

Linzy Bonham 23:58
It does.

Linzy Bonham 23:59
It does.

Linzy Bonham 24:00
And that’s what they really need from you, right?

Linzy Bonham 24:02
Like, I think as therapists, I think we need to treat our work with a lot of reverence.

Linzy Bonham 24:07
People come to us with immense vulnerability, right?

Linzy Bonham 24:11
Like, they come to us showing us parts that they’ve never even acknowledged themselves before, right?

Linzy Bonham 24:16
And we really need to treat that with the… It’s like sacred work, right?

Linzy Bonham 24:21
To put it in a certain sense.

Linzy Bonham 24:22
And, and I’m saying this, I just was able to attend a friend’s retirement party from therapy.

Linzy Bonham 24:28
And Tiffany, did you have a retirement party when you stopped practicing therapy?

Linzy Bonham 24:32
I didn’t either.

Linzy Bonham 24:33
But my friend, she’s a little older than us, but she stopped practicing therapy three years ago.

Linzy Bonham 24:38
She’s gone on to write.

Linzy Bonham 24:39
But she’s not retirement aged, right?

Linzy Bonham 24:41
But she’s basically doing a career shift.

Linzy Bonham 24:43
But she had a retirement party.

Linzy Bonham 24:44
So she invited to this retirement party many of her professors from school, people who’ve mentored her over the years.

Linzy Bonham 24:51
So, like, my old clinical supervisor was there ’cause he was her clinical supervisor, too, which I didn’t even realize, and colleagues like me who got to consult with her, and we supported each other.

Linzy Bonham 25:00
And it was really, really beautiful to be there.

Linzy Bonham 25:03
And something that she said that really struck me is, like, “When the work stopped giving me energy, I had to stop because it’s such sacred work.” And that really struck me.

Linzy Bonham 25:14
Like, I feel, I even, when I say that now, I feel that ’cause that was my own decision, too.

Linzy Bonham 25:17
Like, I was still good at it, but I was no longer my best at it, and I was only willing to give my best because the work is so vulnerable.

Linzy Bonham 25:25
Again, people are laying bare themselves to us.

Linzy Bonham 25:28
So I think we need to come to this work with a lot of reverence and respect, and part of that is, like, we need to be well.

Linzy Bonham 25:34
And part of being well is you need to be able to pay for food and pay your mortgage.

Linzy Bonham 25:39
Like, I’m not even talking about… Tiffany, you can talk to them about, like, the fun, extra shiny stuff.

Linzy Bonham 25:43
You vibrate at a higher level than me.

Linzy Bonham 25:45
I’m talking about, like, stability, predictability, being able to, like, just take time off to be a human.

Linzy Bonham 25:51
Last week I took off for my birthday.

Linzy Bonham 25:52
I take off my week of my birthday every, every year.

Linzy Bonham 25:55
As we were chatting about, I mostly just, like, watched Heated Rivalry and, like, I had some naps.

Linzy Bonham 26:00
It was awesome.

Linzy Bonham 26:01
It was so grounding.

Linzy Bonham 26:03
But that’s me taking my needs seriously of, like, I deserve my own time and company, and then I can come back to work and show up just so much fresher today.

Linzy Bonham 26:12
Today I’m a new woman from literally just having a week off where I just live my life but slower, right?

Linzy Bonham 26:17
So yes, this is my, my thinking about therapy is we need to really acknowledge that we have a lot of power, and we need to really be taking care of ourselves to be using that power responsibly.

Linzy Bonham 26:28
What do you think?

Linzy Bonham 26:28
Give me thoughts.

Tiffany McLain 26:29
I love that.

Tiffany McLain 26:30
I love this idea of the sacred work, the reverence.

Tiffany McLain 26:33
I love when you said reverence.

Tiffany McLain 26:35
That’s how I… When I’m working with our therapist, that’s how I feel.

Tiffany McLain 26:40
So, so when, you know, and I wa… and you said I can, I could take it to the next level.

Tiffany McLain 26:43
I want my people to be going on an Italian vacation.

Tiffany McLain 26:46
Like, I want my people to live the same things I want for my children.

Tiffany McLain 26:49
Be safe, yes.

Tiffany McLain 26:50
Secure, yes.

Tiffany McLain 26:51
And then like, what does it take for you to live?

Tiffany McLain 26:53
Be fully showing up in the world, whether that is watching Heated Rivalry for a week, whether that’s going to a hot spring, like whatever it is.

Tiffany McLain 27:00
And so when somebody comes into me and they’re on an insurance panel and making, you know, a $20 copay and then maybe $80, I’m just like, “Oh,” it really devalues the work we’re doing.

Tiffany McLain 27:10
And that doesn’t mean the person’s wrong.

Tiffany McLain 27:11
I don’t want you to take this and be like, “I’m shameful.” I, I, I’m, I don’t want you to feel shame about this, but, but like Linzy and I are saying, the power of the work you do is profound.

Tiffany McLain 27:21
It ought to be held in reverence.

Tiffany McLain 27:23
And as the owner of your business, you are the only one who can go first and say, “This work is worth $200, $300, $400, $500 per session because that’s what I need and want to truly show up and live my life fully.”

Tiffany McLain 27:38
So I’m gonna, I, I, that’s, that’s my thought.

Tiffany McLain 27:40
I love this idea of the sacred work and the reverence that we need to hold for it.

Linzy Bonham 27:45
And as you said, I think being in connection is a really important way to start to shift this, right?

Linzy Bonham 27:50
And to start to own: “This is what I need.”

Linzy Bonham 27:54
This is what I want.

Linzy Bonham 27:56
This is what it costs to live my life, and really be with that.

Linzy Bonham 28:00
‘Cause I do think that can be a lot.

Linzy Bonham 28:02
It can bring up a lot of emotion, right?

Linzy Bonham 28:04
Shame is one of the emotions, but there’s many other emotions we could talk about.

Linzy Bonham 28:07
But when you’re in connection with the right people, you know, there’s like, there’s this song, “Your love has lifted me higher than I’ve ever been lifted before.”

Linzy Bonham 28:16
And I remember when I sang it in choir once, I was like, “This reminds me of my partner.” When we’re with the right people around us, they do lift us up, right?

Linzy Bonham 28:23
And like, for me, you know, you are one of those people.

Linzy Bonham 28:25
Maegan Megginson is one of those people.

Linzy Bonham 28:27
Like, there’s people who have seen in me something that I wasn’t ready to acknowledge yet, and have helped to amplify that, and we all need that.

Linzy Bonham 28:35
And you’re not gonna get that by just, like, trying to do it yourself alone in your office.

Tiffany McLain 28:39
That’s exactly right.

Tiffany McLain 28:40
And we have been, you and I have been in groups, the paid, high-paid consultation… groups together… We have… because we understand the power of being with people and community who are like-minded, and also who challenge and push us to play a bigger game, and j… just like you said, see things about us that we can’t yet see.

Linzy Bonham 28:55
We all need it.

Linzy Bonham 28:56
Humans are social animals.

Linzy Bonham 28:58
So Tiffany, you lovely human, thank you for being here.

Linzy Bonham 29:03
For folks who want to get further into your world, where can they find you?

Tiffany McLain 29:07
I would recommend you go listen to our podcast, The Money Sessions.

Tiffany McLain 29:11
You’re a podcast listener, The Money Sessions is where we’re literally having this conversation week after week.

Tiffany McLain 29:16
The people who are doing it, people who are terrified and feel shame, and yet they wanna see what it’s like to play a different game, a life-first fee game where they’re putting their life first.

Tiffany McLain 29:26
So go check out that podcast, Spotify, uh, Apple, and all the places.

Linzy Bonham 29:31
All the places.

Tiffany McLain 29:32
All the places.

Linzy Bonham 29:34
Thank you, Tiffany.

Linzy Bonham 29:35
It was lovely to have you here.

Tiffany McLain 29:36
Thank you.

Linzy Bonham 29:40
I always enjoy my conversations with Tiffany so much, and I really appreciate her coming on the podcast to have this conversation.

Linzy Bonham 29:47
If there’s one thing I hope that you take away from this chat with Tiffany, I hope it’s the realization that if you’re experiencing any shame around money, that that shame can actually dissipate and go away.

Linzy Bonham 30:00
It is possible to actually move from a place of feeling stuck and really start to own your needs and the fact that there are skills that you can learn that will help you transform your relationship with money and how you manage your finances.

Linzy Bonham 30:11
And if you’re looking for a supportive community where you can connect with other therapists and practice owners and have open and honest conversations that help you move beyond shame, and also where you can access free resources that will help you build your money skills, I want to invite you to join our private WhatsApp community.

Linzy Bonham 30:26
You can head over to the link in the show notes and submit your request to join, or you can reach out to us at hello@moneynutsandbolts.com.

Linzy Bonham 30:33
And if you’re enjoying the podcast, it is always helpful if you leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help other therapists and health practitioners find us and join these conversations.

Linzy Bonham 30:42
Thank you so much for joining me today.