Katie Grant 00:00

The achieving is the downfall now.

Katie Grant 00:02

The achieving is the thing that’s draining the boat. Hmm. That’s weird. That’s such a strange, like, opposite way of looking at it than I have my whole life, right? Like, but I did the thing, and they said I was good,

Linzy Bonham 00:16

Yes. Right.

Katie Grant 00:18

but when I look at my bank account, I don’t feel good.

Linzy Bonham 00:20

Welcome to Money Skills for Therapists, the podcast that helps therapists and health practitioners in private practice go from money confusion and shame to calm, clarity, and confidence with their finances. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by numbers or avoided looking at your business money, you’re in the right place.

Linzy Bonham 00:41

I’m Linzy Bonham, therapist turned money coach and creator of Money Skills for Therapists. Before we jump in, I want to remind you of something really important. Most of us highly skilled and competent therapists and health practitioners were never taught about money, not in grad school, not in supervision, not anywhere.

Linzy Bonham 00:57

And yet, here we are running businesses that need to take care of us while we’re busy taking care of others. It is a lot of pressure. So if part of you feels anxious about money, avoidant, or like a bit of a hot mess financially, I want you to know that you are not alone and I am here to help. Through my workshops each month, I teach practical financial skills to help you feel more grounded, calm, and confident with your private practice money.

Linzy Bonham 01:21

You can see what’s coming up and save your spot to join live or register for the replay at moneyskillsfortherapists.com/workshops. Let’s get started.

Linzy Bonham 01:29

Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is a coaching conversation with Katie Grant, who is a recent graduate of Money Skills for Therapists. Today, Katie and I first ground in kind of the lay of the land of where she is, having completed the course, but feeling like, “Okay, now that I have all this information, how do I proceed with paying down this debt?” that she’s identified. Uh, we talked about this, this image before the call of it feels like bailing out a boat with a spoon, but as Katie and I dug into the issue today, we identified a piece around professional development. So Katie, in this recording, identifies as a, a course junkie. It’s a term that I’ve heard many, many, many therapists use over the years. So we dig into that drive to just take more and more and more courses, attend all the conferences, get all the education that you possibly can as a therapist. We look at what is harmful about that in terms of Katie’s specific financial situation, and connect with where this drive comes from and how to start to mitigate that drive so that Katie can make grounded financial decisions based on the present, rather than this endless drive to chase and accumulate education and achieve.

Linzy Bonham 02:43

I think this conversation’s gonna resonate with so many of you listening ’cause I know, uh, like Katie and like me, many folks listening will identify with the achiever narrative, with, you know, being a kid who got all the A+es or being gifted or just being somebody who always expects the most from themselves, that perfectionism. Here is my coaching conversation with Katie Grant.

Linzy Bonham 03:11

So Katie, welcome to the podcast.

Katie Grant 03:13

Thank you very much. Happy to be here.

Linzy Bonham 03:14

Yeah, so happy to have you here. So Katie, you’ve just recently been working through Money Skills for Therapists.

Katie Grant 03:21

I just graduated.

Linzy Bonham 03:22

Just graduated, yes. And we were just chatting a little bit beforehand. I think you’re, you’re still, in what we might call, like, a messy middle place, right?

Linzy Bonham 03:32

There, there’s been a lot of things you’ve worked on, but you’re still very much in process, which is, I think, great for folks listening too, right? Like, so what would be helpful for us to dive into today? Tell me what, where you’re at now.

Katie Grant 03:44

So I have grown so much in terms of, like, knowing what’s happening. I didn’t even know how ignorant I was about what was happening with my practice in terms of income and out, out expenses. And so now I can see it all really clearly, but it’s kind of like, now what? Like, how do I proceed with this new understanding and try to pull myself out of the old thoughts and worries and scarcity kind of focused decision-making?

Katie Grant 04:18

Like, that’s, I think, a big piece, is I used to just kind of make decisions based on is there money in the account or isn’t there? And now I can see, oh my goodness, I actually have money to pay myself or pay my estimated taxes. Because I’m doing the Profit First buckets that you taught us. But I also am aware of this huge amount of debt that I was kind of blind to because it was pieces here and pieces there, and now you’ve helped me pull it all together and see it in one thing

Linzy Bonham 04:45

one big

Katie Grant 04:45

it’s, like, a lot, uh, ’cause I don’t like debt. And so, you know, I don’t know what I need exactly other than just to kind of, yeah, just to move, I need to be able to move forward understanding this stuff and making better decisions

Linzy Bonham 05:04

And part of what I’m hearing is you, you’ve done the work to get clear on the situation, and you’re looking at the situation, and it’s like, “Ugh.”

Katie Grant 05:12

E- yes, exactly. Yes, that’s the, that’s the sound. That’s the, sound in my heart, yes

Linzy Bonham 05:17

Ew. So, ’cause what you’re seeing is, now that you can see the debt all in one place, I said a pile of debt. Debt’s not really a pile, it’s more of a hole. There’s kind of like a debt pit,

Katie Grant 05:26

Yeah. Yes.

Linzy Bonham 05:27

to fill, right? Which is s- significant. And then also you had mentioned before we were recording when we were chatting, you know, you can see now the money coming into the practice, although it looks like a lot, there’s not a ton of wiggle room for you to work on this debt piece

Katie Grant 05:40

Right, like my operating expenses are far above 30%,

Linzy Bonham 05:44

Mm-hmm.

Katie Grant 05:45

far above, even though I’ve cut back

Linzy Bonham 05:48

Yes. Okay. So yeah, let’s talk a little bit about the lay of the land, the the picture that you’re looking at there, you’re kind of figuring how to, need to figure out how to, proceed with. Your OPEX you said, which is operating expenses for folks listening, far above 30%.

Linzy Bonham 06:00

Where are yours sitting right now?

Katie Grant 06:02

I don’t have the exact number, but yeah. 70, 80.

Linzy Bonham 06:05

Okay. Okay. Okay. And tell me about those operating expenses

Katie Grant 06:11

So it’s, doesn’t feel like like this is one of the pieces I wasn’t clear on because it’s just the little things add up, right? So I’ve got rent at 800, internet 150, uh, my Jane app

Linzy Bonham 06:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Katie Grant 06:31

I had a whole bunch of like yearly dues come up this last month, so I’m a member of too many things. Uh, there’s probably $500 worth of, of dues for like different associations.

Linzy Bonham 06:44

For your annual dues. Okay, but they all hit it once.

Linzy Bonham 06:47

Yeah.

Katie Grant 06:49

I, uh, have $30 for Psychology Today. Oh, and then health insurance is like 350.

Linzy Bonham 06:57

Right. Okay.

Katie Grant 06:57

One of the biggest things though is, my personal therapy,

Linzy Bonham 07:02

Right.

Katie Grant 07:03

which I do put in my work stuff.

Linzy Bonham 07:06

Okay. Okay.

Katie Grant 07:07

and that is $800 a month.

Linzy Bonham 07:10

Okay. Okay. Is it like 200 a session?

Katie Grant 07:12

It’s 175 for one therapist.

Katie Grant 07:14

Another one is insurance covered, so it’s a co-pay, and then I have a group that I’m in that’s 50 bucks for a month.

Linzy Bonham 07:21

Got it. Okay, so we’ll say 750 or 800? Okay. Yeah, I’ll put 800 here.

Linzy Bonham 07:27

Okay, so that’s a big chunk, yeah.

Katie Grant 07:28

Yeah, I think that is, I mean, the m- the majority of it. I used to buy a lot of things, supplies, and I’m, I’m not doing that anymore because I understand that I don’t need it and I can’t afford it.

Linzy Bonham 07:41

Okay. Right. So that’s an area where you’ve already made some changes then on the supplies piece,

Katie Grant 07:45

One of the biggest holes in the boat that I feel like I am bailing with a spoon is education, continuing education. I’m a sucker. I like, I really am, I’m a junkie, I call myself. I hope that’s not offensive to anyone listening, but, like, I really do feel addicted to education.

Katie Grant 08:04

I really love it. That’s part of why I belong to so many things, and

Linzy Bonham 08:08

Okay, yes. And, yeah, the term course junkie, uh, I’ve heard used many times over the years of working with therapists. I don’t think it’s an unusual affliction that only applies to you. But I’m curious, with your picture, Katie, yeah, how much are you maybe spending on a course at a time? How much are you spending in a year? Give me a sense of your course picture.

Katie Grant 08:27

So I generally go to conferences or, like, I’m online. Luckily I don’t have to go to all of them anymore. But I do a couple of yearly conferences that I do travel to, so that’s probably $1,000 a pop maybe. I do a webinar pass that’s, like, 200. And then I have a real hard time passing up online conferences that are, like, early bird virtual tickets that are maybe 150 or 200 for a three-day conference.

Katie Grant 08:59

I did realize at some point that I never go back and watch the recordings of anything, so I, I’ve stopped buying on-demand things

Linzy Bonham 09:07

Yeah. Okay,

Katie Grant 09:08

sit there and don’t get used.

Linzy Bonham 09:11

But yeah, so those, those conferences, a couple year… I mean, I have to say, your conference fees, as somebody from Canada who often has to travel to the States, I’m like, “Oh, that’s such a deal for conferences.” ‘Cause, you know, you’re not, you’re not having to travel too far or, or

Katie Grant 09:22

No, because I’m like three hours from Chicago. That’s kind of the place that I generally travel to. Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 09:28

Okay, so these conferences, webinars, I’m hearing again, there’s already been some awareness that you’ve built around these recordings. That’s not a good investment for you, so you don’t do that anymore. But yeah, so this is forming a large part of your operating expenses as well then, are these education investments

Katie Grant 09:43

and I think there’s a lot of FOMO involved.

Linzy Bonham 09:45

Yeah, so this is, you know, a question for us to get into, ’cause we know this is, as you said, a leak. You said a leak in the boat. Sometimes we talk about business as a bucket, too. It’s like a leak in the bucket. It’s like money’s coming in the door, but it’s just flowing right out the side. So this is maybe a bit of, um, there’s a hole. How big is the hole in the

Katie Grant 10:01

Oh my gosh, at least fist size.

Linzy Bonham 10:04

I’m sorry, what was that again? Say it again. Fist size?

Linzy Bonham 10:06

Okay. Okay. So we have a fist size hole, and whenever we see this in, like, our finances, it gives us a chance to be curious about, yeah, what is the vulnerability there, right? Or sometimes I think about what is the need under the want, right? What is really driving this behavior? And I’m hearing FOMO is something you’re identifying

Katie Grant 10:26

I just, well, A, I just really love learning and want to kind of know everything. But B, I also, despite having been doing this for 20 years and having way more education under my belt than anybody I know by far, I still feel like if I don’t, if I don’t learn this new thing that applies to the people that I work with, then I’m doing them a disservice somehow.

Linzy Bonham 10:57

Hmm.

Katie Grant 10:58

And I don’t f- I– When I think about it logically, that doesn’t feel true. I, I, uh, my therapist and I both have said out loud, I think, like, “I don’t need any more education ever,” and I still am a very good therapist, and I know way more than a lot of people, and it’s all good, right? But I think it increased a little bit when I s- came away from insurance and started charging premium fees. There’s, like, a, a, a resurgence maybe of the, the early career, like, trauma responsive, “I gotta know more ’cause I don’t know what I’m doing.” And I don’t feel like I don’t know what I’m doing. But I still feel like I need to know it all. I need to be trained in all of it. Like, I have a list of things I want to be trained in,

Linzy Bonham 11:44

Yeah

Katie Grant 11:45

that’s way too long.

Katie Grant 11:47

Like 10 or 12 things that… And it’s, you know, something new comes, and I add it to the list, and I’m like, “I can’t do all of these things. I have to pick one.”

Katie Grant 11:55

And so, I mean, I’ve been very specialized in EMDR therapy, so I’ve done, you know, that’s where a lot of my training is, and that and just general trauma and dissociation kind of stuff.

Katie Grant 12:06

But, like, I don’t have to know all the things. I, I can just do what I do. But I don’t feel that’s true in my s- my core, I don’t think, right?

Linzy Bonham 12:18

‘Cause in your core, what is the rebuttal to that?

Katie Grant 12:22

Um, but you could be better. But you could be more, more better. That’s not very good, but

Linzy Bonham 12:34

Yeah

Katie Grant 12:35

more excellent. Who, who are you to charge these fees if you don’t know it all?

Linzy Bonham 12:40

Mm-hmm.

Katie Grant 12:42

of it

Linzy Bonham 12:43

And I’m curious, what is the emotional tone of that for you?

Katie Grant 12:49

Fear, definitely, that nobody will wanna pay me these fees. I mean, I have two clients paying me the full fee right now, and I’ve several old clients that I’ve given a bit of a discount. But everybody feels the scarcity right now, so it feels, like, difficult to truly believe that people will come in the door not knowing me if they don’t feel I’m the best of the best of the best.

Katie Grant 13:15

Ah, that feels really familiar. That’s like childhood shit. I’m sorry, can I curse on your

Linzy Bonham 13:22

Oh, you absolutely can let loose. People are used to it around here.

Linzy Bonham 13:27

So yes, tell me about this being the best of the best of the best

Katie Grant 13:29

Like I, you know, getting A-pluses, getting the star of the choir solo, being the head of the class, being the, I think I ended up being vice president in, sixth grade or something, and it was just such a, like a, “Oh, I should’ve been president.” I just didn’t do enough to become, you know, like such a big responsibility of the student council in elementary school, right?

Linzy Bonham 13:54

Of course. It’s, it’s a big job.

Katie Grant 13:56

So it’s always been there, and I always… That was the thing I feel like I got reinforced for, was being the, the kind of the cream of the crop, the head of the curve in terms of school testing and all of those things.

Katie Grant 14:10

I was in gifted and talented, and man,

Linzy Bonham 14:13

I was gonna say, so what I’m, what I’m hearing here, I’m hearing, like, gifted achiever shit. Yes, which is, you know, very old for you. We’re talking about elementary school. I feel it deeply. I still have some pride that I won the grade five of the year award. That was a big deal

Katie Grant 14:30

That’s… I used to say I peaked in fifth grade because I won the citywide spelling bee.

Linzy Bonham 14:35

Oh, okay.

Katie Grant 14:36

And then sixth grade, you know, I lost the presidency and lost the spelling bee.

Linzy Bonham 14:41

A great upset. Okay. So yeah, so this is old, old stuff for you, right

Linzy Bonham 14:48

And this achiever stuff, I know, you know, you do a lot of work on yourself. You just mentioned the, the money that you spend on therapy. What do you know about this achiever excellence drive for you? Like, what, what have you discovered or managed to shift about it so far?

Katie Grant 15:05

I think it comes down to feeling, feeling like I need to earn or like, yeah, earn my worth.

Linzy Bonham 15:16

Hmm.

Katie Grant 15:16

And if I’m not the best or, uh, you know, getting the, the top whatever, then I’m not working hard enough or I’m not like trying hard enough. Trying hard enough.

Linzy Bonham 15:31

Okay, so it’s about trying hard too.

Katie Grant 15:34

Like I, I, you know, lazy is a, is a word that I was, you know, slapped around with as a child certainly. I didn’t, I don’t think, uh, you know, I have, uh, uh, ADHD as well. I was diagnosed last year

Linzy Bonham 15:47

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Katie Grant 15:48

and started medication and that’s helped some of this stuff too, just being able to hold more in mind, zoom out better, you know?

Linzy Bonham 15:58

Yes.

Katie Grant 15:59

But nobody knew that when I was a kid ’cause I got good grades.

Linzy Bonham 16:04

Right. Yes. Okay. Okay. Yes.

Linzy Bonham 16:08

And so what I’m hearing is this, this part of you, I mean, if, if we did peg this to a certain age, I am curious about this part. Is there an age that goes with it?

Katie Grant 16:16

Oh yeah. Like, I mean, I think it’s 12. I think it’s sixth grade.

Katie Grant 16:20

Mm-hmm.

Linzy Bonham 16:20

Okay, great. So it’s sixth grade. And I noticed you’re saying sixth grade, not fifth grade

Katie Grant 16:24

Yeah, because sixth grade was when I, was my downfall.

Linzy Bonham 16:27

Yes.

Katie Grant 16:28

Yes. So fifth grade I was on top of the world. I felt like, yeah, I did, I achieved the top of the thing, you know? There was a banner in the hallway. Remember the old printers where they ha- you had the stuff you had to pull off the sides? Yeah, so yeah, the perforated banner in the hallway of the elementary school.

Katie Grant 16:44

“Good luck, Katie,” at the… And like, “Great job, Katie,” when I won the citywide, um, spelling bee. And like, it felt like a, a letdown the next year when I wasn’t winning everything. It felt like, yeah, a failure.

Linzy Bonham 16:59

Failure. Yeah.

Katie Grant 17:01

And that’s kind of the word, that’s the word that comes up a lot when I think about the debt,

Linzy Bonham 17:05

Okay.

Katie Grant 17:06

is failure.

Linzy Bonham 17:07

Yeah.

Katie Grant 17:08

Which I’ve never failed anyth- I mean, I’ve never failed a class.

Linzy Bonham 17:11

Yes. Yeah.

Katie Grant 17:13

gotten an F in a class.

Linzy Bonham 17:14

Okay. So right, you’ve never failed academically, but what I’m hearing is y- you continuing to… Now as an adult, you have to invest money to get this education, to get these kind of certificates, and have all of these trainings that you can list off on your website. Now what I’m hearing is this part of you is still so focused on achieving, kind of accumulating education, it’s financially costing you a lot of money

Katie Grant 17:45

Yeah. Yeah. The achieving is the downfall now. The achieving is the thing that’s draining the boat. Hmm. That’s weird. That’s such a strange, like, opposite way of looking at it than I have my whole life, right? Like, but I did the thing, and they said I was good,

Linzy Bonham 18:05

Yes. Right.

Katie Grant 18:07

but when I look at my bank account, I don’t feel good

Linzy Bonham 18:10

No, yeah, because it’s like I think about it as this endless chasing that we can do, right? It’s like we chase and we chase, and with those of us who are achievers, uh, there’s also this idea of, you know, moving the goalposts.

Linzy Bonham 18:26

It’s like when I get here, then I’m gonna be good enough.

Linzy Bonham 18:28

Then, then it will be justified that I’m charging people these fees. And then you get to that goalpost, you’re like, “No, no, no, this wasn’t it. It’s that one over there.” Right? And we’re kind of like endlessly chasing the, the horizon in terms of endless achievements we could be accumulating.

Katie Grant 18:44

Yes. And I’m feeling so, like so failure that I’ve been applying for jobs, which I don’t wanna work for someone.

Katie Grant 18:52

I really don’t. I love being self-employed and like not having to deal with someone else telling me how to do things, and I’m not doing enough, right? So like I’m the boss that feels like I’m not doing enough now. And I think I’m like, “Well, if I worked for someone else, they would tell me I’m doing enough, and then it would be okay, and I wouldn’t have to deal with all these expenses and worry about getting clients and whether clients wanna pay me my fee and, I’m not saying that’s, like, a bad or wrong choice, but I think it’s coming from that scarcity, that feeling of not enough,

Katie Grant 19:27

I don’t know if people say this anymore, but that fear of success, right?

Katie Grant 19:30

like, uh, if I have an excuse to not try, then I don’t f- have to fail or for- worry about failing.

Katie Grant 19:38

I think that’s kind of where I’m at right now is, like, this is the do or die moment. I’m making enough to survive, but I’m not keeping enough to get anywhere on this debt stuff, although I’m really happy that I was able to make an extra payment on the debt because of the Profit First system.

Katie Grant 19:56

It was in my retirement bucket, but, like, I, I need that to be paid off to retire somewhat.

Linzy Bonham 20:01

Yes. Yeah.

Katie Grant 20:02

I felt it was fair. But I was really like, “Wow, this feels really good to just, like, see that there’s enough money to do that, and know that there’s still other money there to pay the rest of the stuff that’s coming through.”

Katie Grant 20:13

So it’s not like I’m not making anything, but it does feel like I’m running on a treadmill, like I’m not really… Or, or bailing the boat with the spoon. I really don’t want to have a job. I really just want the security of a dependable income that I don’t have to chase. I mean, that was a beautiful word, chasing

Linzy Bonham 20:36

Yes. Yeah, and what I’m hearing right now is you have actually built your practice to the place that there is decent money coming in the door,

Katie Grant 20:44

Mm-hmm. I mean, and yeah, but I mean it’s about to change because I’m losing a contract that I had for one, like, day of work with someone else.

Katie Grant 20:56

Um, and that’s like, “Oh shit.” So now I have to get a couple more clients to make up for that, and I have no idea if that’s possible.

Linzy Bonham 21:05

Okay. Okay. Yeah, ’cause what I’m hearing is you want to be in private practice,

Katie Grant 21:09

Mm-hmm.

Linzy Bonham 21:11

Right. Which, which is good information because some folks get into private practice and they’re like, “Actually, I j- I don’t wanna be here. You know, this isn’t worth it for me. I would be happier working for somebody else.” Part of what I’m hearing of the idea of working for somebody else, something- part of it that appeals of it to you is I am hearing this external validation

Katie Grant 21:29

There’s the external

Linzy Bonham 21:30

fantasy. Can I call it a fantasy? It’s a… I know it’s a little harsh, but, um, that’s a very psychoanalytic word, but this, this fantasy of external validation where it’s like, “Well, if I worked for somebody else, then they would tell me I’m doing a good job, and I wouldn’t feel the need to constantly be chasing and acquiring all these trainings”

Katie Grant 21:48

I would be doing the trainings they want me to do, and they would be paying for it, and they would say, “Good job going to that training we told you to go to,” right? And using it or whatever. But, uh, yeah, I think it all is because I feel like I’ve failed at, at managing my business.

Katie Grant 22:02

I feel like I’ve failed at, yeah, being a business owner. Like, I know I’m a good therapist. It’s really the business owner part that I didn’t realize I was messing up so bad until I took, you know, took some, some hard, uh, lessons from you and looked at what was happening. And so it’s like, then I– if I get a job, I don’t have to face that this failed.

Katie Grant 22:24

It’s like, “Oh, no, I did that for the security.” It feels like an excuse to not really try.

Linzy Bonham 22:32

So here’s, here’s an achiever thing that I’ve noticed, I’m curious if this resonates for you. What I’ve noticed with achievers is we often just wanna stick at continuing to do the thing that we’re good at. In your case, that’d be like taking trainings, building new skills. You’re like, “I’m good at this.

Linzy Bonham 22:46

I’m a good therapist. I’m gonna be gooder therapist. I’m gonna be an even better therapist, more excellent than excellent.” We tend to wanna stay in the zones where we can feel excellence

Katie Grant 22:56

Mm-hmm.

Linzy Bonham 22:58

And avoid the zones where we’re actually maybe just kinda like middling and muddling and still learning and it’s messy and

Katie Grant 23:06

Yes. Oh,

Linzy Bonham 23:07

That’s not where we tend to feel comfortable

Linzy Bonham 23:11

And what I’m hearing here as we’re kind of painting this picture together is what’s interesting is we’ve identified that it’s actually this kind of endless chasing of education that is making it so the finances aren’t

Katie Grant 23:24

Uh, ironic. Yes.

Linzy Bonham 23:26

just

Katie Grant 23:27

little bit.

Linzy Bonham 23:28

Right? It’s kind of like your Achilles heel here, right?

Linzy Bonham 23:31

Like, this thing that is your strength is also this, this weakness in this case. And I’m also thinking about this external/internal piece, right? It’s like you’re spending so much money trying to show other people that you’re good enough, and your fee is justified, and you’re the best of the best of the best of the best.

Linzy Bonham 23:47

There’s so much about that, how you’re being perceived by others, that you personally are actually financially suffering.

Katie Grant 23:53

Mm-hmm.

Linzy Bonham 23:54

There’s not enough to take care of you

Katie Grant 23:56

Mm-hmm.

Katie Grant 23:58

Yeah. And I think I, uh, y- yeah, and the, like, it’s a short-term, long-term thing, too. I think in the short term, it does feel like it’s for me because I enjoy it, so I’m like, “Oh, this is, this is nice.” And I also get that in, that validation through the, the learning process, right? ‘Cause I do the live ones that I get to interact.

Katie Grant 24:17

I’m always the person that talks and asks the questions and all of that, right? So even just the student part of me is, like, feeling that’s where I belong. But I cannot make a living and retire on being a perpetual student.

Linzy Bonham 24:32

No, it’s not a great career. No. Does the language of parts resonate with you,

Katie Grant 24:38

Oh, definitely.

Linzy Bonham 24:39

Yeah.

Katie Grant 24:40

Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 24:41

‘Cause what I’m hearing is this part of you that we associate with being around 12, that you associate with 12, this kind of achiever part, this. But this achiever who knows there’s something to lose.

Katie Grant 24:52

Mm-hmm.

Linzy Bonham 24:52

It’s kinda like your fallen from grace achiever part of you. Does that part know about your adult life, and that you now have to also make money, work, and pay bills, and take care of yourself? Is that part aware of the life you’re living now?

Katie Grant 25:08

I think that part of me does have a window into now, but I don’t think it’s like a felt understanding. I think it’s like a, oh, you know, the grownups are doing that stuff. Right? And, uh, yeah, still very strong, like this is what I get props for. This is what I get the good jobs for, and so this is what I do.

Katie Grant 25:40

Yeah, no, I don’t think she really cares. I think she’s 12 and she doesn’t understand finances. I guess I don’t, I don’t say, “Hey, 12-year-old, do you wanna pay attention while I’m doing my spreadsheet?” I don’t. She’s not part of that. She doesn’t wanna be there for that. Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 25:56

Yeah. But I am hearing that she’s getting to drive a lot of the financial decisions

Katie Grant 26:01

That’s not smart for a 12-year-old to do that.

Linzy Bonham 26:03

That’s, it’s kinda like the 12-year-old has the checkbook.

Katie Grant 26:07

Ah, yikes. Okay. Yes. I feel like this is a familiar realization, like I might have actually had that thought before.

Linzy Bonham 26:16

But we’re back to it now at a new level.

Katie Grant 26:19

Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 26:20

Right? Like, if we, if we even just think about it like that, the, uh, you know, I live with a child, he’s only seven, even more reckless than 12, but I wouldn’t give him the credit card. Like, we would have a lot of cool Lego and no

Katie Grant 26:32

Oh, yes. Yes.

Linzy Bonham 26:36

So as you think about that, it’s like what parts of you need to be more online when you’re making these investment decisions in your business? Because you do… Some education is a good thing. I’m hearing education is helpful for you on kind of a, a few fronts, right? It’s good to, it’s good to stay up on modalities.

Linzy Bonham 26:54

It’s good to be able to serve your folks in moderation, right? So what is the part of you that needs to be more present when you’re making a decision? Do I go to this conference? Do I join this course?

Katie Grant 27:06

I feel like I have a money part. Like it’s, it’s a grown-up part, but it’s very anxious. That’s probably the part of me that worries the most and like thinks the most about the money. I don’t know if it’s the best one to make decisions. It, it’s very, very scarcity.

Linzy Bonham 27:22

Yeah.

Katie Grant 27:23

Um, yeah, so I’m like, okay, I probably need to engage more, more of myself in the process of the money stuff because I do know I can be…

Katie Grant 27:34

As I’ve made more responsible decisions, I’m trying to internalize that too, right? And like congratulate myself for not pushing yes on that, training or conference or, you know, s- unsubscribing from that training company that always gets me with their emails. And that’s the part that needs to be more online is the part that’s making these good decisions.

Katie Grant 27:55

I’m just not sure which part that is

Linzy Bonham 27:57

And I was gonna say let’s, let’s be curious about that part of you.

Katie Grant 28:01

Yeah, see, I think all of my adultness is wound up in caregiving.

Linzy Bonham 28:06

Mm.

Katie Grant 28:08

For other people, I mean.

Linzy Bonham 28:09

Yes.

Katie Grant 28:10

Not for myself.

Linzy Bonham 28:12

Right.

Katie Grant 28:13

I mean, I try to, I try to turn it around, but yeah. So I think that, that some of this caregiving energy could definitely be directed into financial caregiving, right? Like, and not thinking about what, you know, the clients need or what I need for marketing or whatever, but thinking about what I need to be financially stable

Katie Grant 28:38

So I feel like there’s like volunteers inside saying they, they are happy to

Linzy Bonham 28:42

Yes.

Linzy Bonham 28:43

Yes. ‘Cause those volunteers that see that you have this immense caregiving energy that you can turn inwards

Katie Grant 28:53

Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 28:53

we engage them more? How can you put them to work more around these decisions?

Katie Grant 28:58

I think almost all of the, the impulse spending is through email marketing. So I think maybe I just need to, like, get in the habit of inviting that forward when I’m checking my email, which I’m trying to do less often. And like I said, I’m- I’ve unsubscribed so much that there’s a lot less coming through.

Katie Grant 29:17

But there’s things that still come through because I don’t wanna unsubscribe from certain people, and yeah. So I think that’s really possible just to be like, “Okay, I’m opening my email.” You know, caregiver energy here. Need to– caregiver for Katie energy

Linzy Bonham 29:34

Yes, ground into that caregiver for self energy.

Katie Grant 29:39

Mm-hmm.

Linzy Bonham 29:39

‘Cause then from that place, my numbers question for that part of you, and for you, and this might not be something we’re able to figure out now, is what’s the budget for professional trainings for the year?

Katie Grant 29:51

Yeah, so, uh, uh, you know, your spreadsheet is beautiful in that it, it, it, there’s a tab that encourages you to budget and see how that all works out, right? And I have thought about, I mean, what I’ve intended to do, let’s see. I’m trying to find it on the list. Professional development, there it is.

Katie Grant 30:15

It’s $50 a month, so that’s $600 a year, which is ridiculously less

Linzy Bonham 30:22

I was like, “Is that enough?”

Katie Grant 30:24

Probably not. I mean, I don’t think I could keep to that

Linzy Bonham 30:27

No. No, you couldn’t. I mean, that’s almost like trying to go on a crash diet. You’re like, “It’s fine. I’m just gonna eat 50 calories a day.”

Katie Grant 30:36

Oh my God, it is. Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 30:37

this is totally sustainable, and this is gonna help. Um, thinking about your system, you know, you mentioned back at the beginning Profit First.

Linzy Bonham 30:44

You’ve seen how you were actually able to make an extra debt payment

Katie Grant 30:48

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Linzy Bonham 30:51

This, Katie, would be an excellent use of an additional Profit First account

Katie Grant 30:57

Yes.

Linzy Bonham 31:00

Then you can allocate it based on percentages, right? We get to think in ratio to these other things that your money needs to do. How important is professional development?

Linzy Bonham 31:08

We’re not gonna say 50 bucks a month, ’cause that’s not gonna work. Like, you know, that’s, that’s gonna be broken, and then you’re gonna have a fall off the wagon experience. Um, but looking at your Profit First calculator, I wonder if we break OPEX out so that we think about what is your core OPEX that needs to be there.

Linzy Bonham 31:24

You know, you have that office rent, the internet, the Jane, you know, those

Katie Grant 31:26

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Linzy Bonham 31:28

If we look at those and like, Psych Today, your insurance as kind of their own bucket, it’s like what percentage of money needs to flow into that bucket to cover your basic monthly stuff?

Katie Grant 31:38

Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 31:39

And then what percentage could be allocated to professional development as its own special category?

Linzy Bonham 31:45

‘Cause it is something important to you. You know, we wouldn’t wanna change that about you. But I’m hearing that. The 12-year-old can’t have the checkbook anymore

Katie Grant 31:53

No, and I think you are absolutely right. This is excellent because this… I just am really blown away by how much my brain likes being able to see the money separated out

Linzy Bonham 32:03

I, I’ve developed a, an opinion recently that I think Profit First is great for ADHD. I’ve been talking with our students about it. I’m like, it’s, it keeps you out of the weeds, it doesn’t take a lot of upkeep, and it just is so clear.

Katie Grant 32:17

very easy. I’m still just, like, flabbergasted by it because I think that’s what I was doing before you

Linzy Bonham 32:25

Aha.

Katie Grant 32:26

was just, “Oh, there’s plenty of money in the account, so that means I can spend on this. Oh, there’s no money in the account, that means I can’t spend on this.” And that kind of thinking got me where I am, so it do- it did not work.

Katie Grant 32:41

But it’s kind of the same thing, only it’s accurate because it’s broken out.

Linzy Bonham 32:47

Exactly. Exactly. You still get to look at it and see, is the money there for this really cool training? But more often the o- answer’s gonna be, “Uh, not right now, but next month I’ll be at that amount.” Right? Or like, “Okay, I have this much, so do I wanna do that conference or do I wanna do this flashy new thing?

Linzy Bonham 33:03

What is more important?” Um, ’cause do you have your Profit First calculator

Katie Grant 33:07

Have it up. Uh-huh.

Linzy Bonham 33:08

I’m curious about your percentages

Katie Grant 33:11

So I’ve got 5% profit, 15% taxes, 40% salary, 30% OPEX, and 10% big goals or retirement.

Linzy Bonham 33:23

So OPEX was 40, you said?

Katie Grant 33:24

30. 40 salary and 30 OPEX.

Linzy Bonham 33:27

Okay. Okay. And then the big goals was how much? Okay, great. Okay. So looking at these numbers, you know, when I see the 40% salary for you, I’m like, “Mm, I don’t like that.” And also when I look at that, I will also just say as an observation, well, I guess that’s 50% ’cause you’ve, you know, you’ve got 10% going to big goals, and is big goals your debt/retirement pay down?

Linzy Bonham 33:51

Okay, and that’s where you took the money last month. Yeah, I am curious if we brought down OPEX to think about a monthly OPEX percentage, and then allocating a separate percentage for that professional development, how that would help with, with making these decisions from a strategic place

Katie Grant 34:09

So like if I took the salary from 40 to 30

Linzy Bonham 34:14

Take salary from 40

Katie Grant 34:15

that, yeah, and that would g- leave 10% for the education

Linzy Bonham 34:20

Um, gonna take OPEX. We’ll take OPEX from 30 and we’ll move that down to 20%. Yeah, no, we’re not touching that salary. That salary we keep. So 20%, ’cause what is the, the average amount that tends to come in the door? What’s your top line average number that we’re playing with?

Katie Grant 34:34

So like around five grand. But I am losing that contract. That brings it down to like around 3,000, 3,500

Linzy Bonham 34:43

Okay. Okay. Right. But you’ll be, you’ll, you know, you will be replacing that contract, but you’ll have a little drop right now

Katie Grant 34:48

Yeah. Yeah. But I have hit, it looks like I’ve hit five grand every month this year, and in some months a little bit more. Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 34:56

Okay. So that five grand then, so the five grand, if we take your OPEX down to 20% would be 1,000, which would basically cover your, your rent, internet, and Jane. But not

Katie Grant 35:13

On my dues and everything.

Linzy Bonham 35:14

Yeah, minus 79. Okay, so we’ve got some squeakiness here happening on the earning side as well. Okay, okay. So there’ll be some play for you to do here, to play with how do we make these numbers work, and part of it might be, you know, that we need to look at ways for you to continue to increase your income, right?

Linzy Bonham 35:32

Attract those folks who wanna pay you. But just as we’re looking at our buckets and how you’re allocating, playing with, like, breaking out OPEX as its own category, right? ‘Cause just for example, if we made OPEX, uh, 5%, right? If I take 5,000 times five, that’s 250 a month for OPEX. Now you’re moving to a number that actually could get you some education, that could pay for, you know, one or two of those conferences, depending how you wanna use it.

Linzy Bonham 35:59

‘Cause 5% professional development would be $3,000 a year

Katie Grant 36:03

Okay. Which is, yeah, way more than 600.

Linzy Bonham 36:06

Yeah. Like, we don’t wanna squash the 12-year-old. We wanna, we don’t wanna

Katie Grant 36:09

You’re right, she just went, “Ooh.”

Linzy Bonham 36:11

Yeah, exactly. It’s like, “Okay, 3,000. Wow. Okay. Do I want this, this, and this? Do I want this, this, and this?”

Linzy Bonham 36:17

Um, there’s a podcast I used to listen to called Afford Anything, and it was a fire podcast, so it was all people trying to, like, retire early, which doesn’t resonate with me ’cause I love this work and I would never do that. But the title of the podcast, the idea was you can afford anything, but you can’t afford everything,

Katie Grant 36:33

Hmm.

Linzy Bonham 36:34

right?

Linzy Bonham 36:34

So when we’re really intentional about what we actually want, you can have those things, but you can’t have that and that and that and that and that, right? And so what I’m hearing is the 12-year-old is on board, $3,000 a year feels like, “Okay, okay. Uh-huh. We can do that.”

Linzy Bonham 36:48

But that will give you a natural limit to make sure the other money that you’re bringing in can do those other jobs of paying you and paying your bills and paying down the, the debt

Katie Grant 36:58

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Linzy Bonham 37:01

How does that sit with you?

Katie Grant 37:02

It sits well. Let me ask you a question about the debt.

Katie Grant 37:07

I get urges to pay it off, like, with, like, cash out on my retirement,

Linzy Bonham 37:12

Uh-huh.

Katie Grant 37:14

and I, I know that’s probably not a good idea, but it feels like it would feel so much better to have nothing in retirement and also no debt. And I don’t even think I have enough in retirement to pay it all off.

Katie Grant 37:30

I might… It might kinda even out, but

Linzy Bonham 37:32

Okay.

Katie Grant 37:33

is that the, is that the, impulsivity? Like, I just, I just wanna get it over with and avoid dealing with

Linzy Bonham 37:37

Yes. Financially, you know, we, we’d have to look at your investments and look at the actual numbers, but

Linzy Bonham 37:44

you probably have some credit card debt, right? Are they on cards that are charging interest, or do you have some

Katie Grant 37:50

No, I’m paying a lot of interest right now.

Katie Grant 37:53

I guess that, that was an expense I didn’t mention.

Linzy Bonham 37:55

Yes, you’re right. Yes. So that is a piece where it would be about comparing the numbers on both sides. You know, like, what’s really powerful about having retirement investments is you’re getting compounding interest. So even though the interest rate might be lower than what you’re paying on the debt, it’s like every year the money gets bigger, and that money gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and like, it- it’s like a snowball effect to the positive, right?

Katie Grant 38:19

And that’s what has kept me from doing it because I look at the statement and I’m like, “Oh God, it’s making money. I don’t wanna take it.”

Linzy Bonham 38:25

Yeah. And, um, having a conversation either with a financial advisor or, like, or even, like, a debt consolidation planner, would be a helpful way to actually run those numbers and see what is strategic. Because what comes to mind for me right away when you talk about just wanting to throw, basically throw all your life savings on the debt is how much is that about this failure narrative and trying to make that go away?

Katie Grant 38:48

Yeah. Yeah, there’s a lot of. I think the money stories feed into that. Like, debt is bad. You shouldn’t have debt. You shouldn’t, like, you know, we judge people that, like, screw up and have all this credit card debt because they’re dumb and they didn’t know what they were doing. And I actually lived the line very long time until I got divorced,

Linzy Bonham 39:09

Yeah. Yes.

Katie Grant 39:10

you know?

Katie Grant 39:11

Um, like eight years ago, and then things started getting hard. So I, I know, again, like my, my most grown-up, most informed selves don’t believe that, but it’s still in the back. Like, you know, “$40,000 of debt. You’re a terrible person.

Linzy Bonham 39:31

Hmm. And that’s

Katie Grant 39:32

You screwed up. Yeah, shame. Big shame.”

Linzy Bonham 39:35

Shame, yeah. So noticing that, right? Like, I think the… in that case, you know, if we talk about we… I mentioned earlier that idea of like what is the need under the want. You want to throw all this money onto your debt because

Katie Grant 39:48

I, I, need to

Linzy Bonham 39:49

You need,

Katie Grant 39:50

less shame,

Linzy Bonham 39:51

less shame right?

Linzy Bonham 39:52

And so it makes me curious about how you can get support with that shame, and starting to shift that shame. I’m thinking a therapy could be awesome

Katie Grant 40:00

I think that, you know, one or all of my therapists could assist me

Linzy Bonham 40:04

In tandem perhaps. Um, yeah, with this shame piece, because we also know it’s the same as the not good enough, right? When we have kinda that vulnerability to shame, when there’s a part that’s like, “Oh, oh, I know the answer.

Linzy Bonham 40:16

I, I’m the worst. That’s, that’s why.” Usually those surface actions aren’t really what shifts that in the long run anyways.

Katie Grant 40:23

I’m just remembering that, uh, you know, a few, a few podcasts ago, uh, I feel like you were speaking to me when you were talking about debt is not a, you know, there’s no value there. It’s not good or bad. It’s just a tool. And I, oh, trying to internalize that so much.

Linzy Bonham 40:38

Yes. Yes. And there’s, there’s pieces there, right? Like I’m hearing, again, work, work that could be done in therapy. You know, there’s some voices there. Like when you were saying that story of like people with credit card are the worst and they blah.

Linzy Bonham 40:48

Like, people can’t see my face ’cause it’s a podcast, but I was making a really pained face. I was like, “Oh.” ‘Cause it’s so mean. It’s so

Katie Grant 40:55

And I would never say that to anyone else.

Linzy Bonham 40:56

Of course, of course, like that’s the voices in your head. But there’s something, there’s lots there to, to unpack and pull out. Like is that actually like how you wanna think about the world?

Linzy Bonham 41:06

Like is that how you believe? Is that, is that what you believe? Is that how you would talk to somebody you love? You know, you know,

Linzy Bonham 41:11

you know. Therapist interventions. You’ve learned a few in those trainings you’ve attended.

Katie Grant 41:14

You know, one of the things the trainings keep saying is you can’t do it to yourself. You can’t therapize yourself. Damn it. Okay, now I know.

Katie Grant 41:22

That’s why I have them.

Linzy Bonham 41:23

So just, yeah, so just noticing that, right?

Linzy Bonham 41:25

It’s like there’s a desire to mitigate that shame. So how else could that shame be softened and mitigated and shifted without making a financial decision that is probably not strategic? Again, you could talk to somebody to, like, run those numbers in a really detailed way. But generally speaking, especially, you know, you and I are not spring chickens anymore. You know,

Katie Grant 41:45

And that’s the

Linzy Bonham 41:46

is not in the distant, distant, distant future.

Katie Grant 41:48

I think that’s probably the thing that has always stopped me is like, well, yeah, it sucks to have debt, but, like, I also am getting older every year. And it, it’s also s- like, it’s also shameful to not have retirement, right? If I were to empty that out, which I’ve emptied a few, that’s just the last one,

Linzy Bonham 42:04

Yeah.

Katie Grant 42:05

then yeah, I would feel pretty bad about being almost 50 and having no savings at all.

Linzy Bonham 42:11

So it wouldn’t actually make you feel better in the end. It’s just kind of like a,

Katie Grant 42:15

It’s just… And which, which thing am I ashamed about?

Linzy Bonham 42:18

try to, yeah, try to alleviate that, that pain.

Katie Grant 42:21

Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 42:22

So Katie, we’ve covered a lot of ground.

Katie Grant 42:25

Mm-hmm.

Linzy Bonham 42:27

Coming to the end of our conversation, what are you taking away today?

Katie Grant 42:31

The 12-year-old should not have the checkbook. Like, she is wonderful and she is a great part of me, but she’s not the person I want to be in charge of my financial committee.

Linzy Bonham 42:43

That’s it.

Katie Grant 42:44

I need to engage my adult responsible intel- you know, not in- not that she’s not intelligent. Adult, adult aware of adult type things, uh, to make those decisions so that she still can use those $3,000 to have fun classes and, you know, meet people and be a good student and

Linzy Bonham 43:05

Yes. Right. It’s like her needs can still be met,

Katie Grant 43:09

Yeah.

Linzy Bonham 43:09

but there’s other parts to make these decisions from a grounded adult place

Katie Grant 43:13

Right. I mean, I was just about to say, like, “Oh, you know, she gets the $3,000, she can do whatever she wants with it.” No, no. That’s not what we’re saying. No, but she, she goes get a say, she goes get to give her input on what classes we spend it on or

Linzy Bonham 43:30

Yes. Yes. Yes. But more, more of a committee. You just said you’re financial

Katie Grant 43:34

Financial committee, yeah. Um, the chair of the financial committee needs to be an adult.

Linzy Bonham 43:41

Agreed. Yeah. And I, and I love that image for you, ’cause there’s richness there, right? It’s not about restriction, it’s not about punishing self, but it’s about grounded decisions

Katie Grant 43:51

And so, yeah, the email especially. I, I’m, I’ve written that down. Like, I really wanna get in the habit of when you open your email, you know, pull forward the adult or financially savvy parts of you.

Linzy Bonham 44:03

Hmm. Great. Thank you so much, Katie, for being here today.

Katie Grant 44:07

Thank you. I always get so much out of talking to you, even when I take you through, you know, a few different twists and turns, you follow me. I appreciate it.

Linzy Bonham 44:16

Wonderful. Thanks for being here.

Linzy Bonham 44:21

I really appreciate Katie sharing depthfully in this conversation today. I know that what she shared is gonna resonate with so many folks listening. And really zooming in on that 12-year-old part of her, for me, felt really pivotal in identifying there’s this drive here. And this drive comes from a younger place.

Linzy Bonham 44:41

It’s not grounded in being an adult and all of the responsibilities that we hold as adults, all the things we need to pay for in life. But it’s this drive to always acquire more, feeling not good enough, you know, feeling this fallen from grace experience that she talked about, and how letting that part of us, and we all have versions of that part of us, drive financial decisions puts us way out of balance in terms of our money actually taking care of us.

Linzy Bonham 45:07

I love how, too, in the conversation with Katie, we got to a practical place at the end. It’s always nice when we move from the emotional into the practical of what are we actually gonna do about this. And now she’s gonna be able to play with her Profit First percentages and see how can her business take care of that drive for education, that desire to be a great therapist and continue to serve her clients with new modalities.

Linzy Bonham 45:29

How can that be balanced with this paying down of debt and paying herself and taking care of the bills in the practice? How do we let that 12-year-old be one member of the financial committee but not be running the show and not be the only voice who’s making financial decisions? So I’m very excited for Katie as she integrates and implements the conversation that we had today into her system and how that will allow her to pay down that debt and see that debt decreasing while also allowing her to continue to learn and grow as a therapist.

Linzy Bonham 45:58

If you’re interested in learning more skills like Katie has, we are doing monthly workshops. Every month, we do a new workshop on a variety of topics, whether it’s practical stuff like taxes or saving for vacation, whether it’s emotional pieces, mindset pieces. We have workshops for solo practices and group practices specifically.

Linzy Bonham 46:19

Just check out the link in the show notes or go to moneyskillsfortherapists.com/workshops. I would love to have you join us at one of our live workshops to work on a piece around money, be it emotional or practical.

Linzy Bonham 46:31

Thank you so much for listening today and being part of these conversations with us. If you are enjoying the podcast, it’s also really helpful for me if you take a minute to leave a review of our podcast, whether on Google Podcasts or on Apple. It is a great way for other therapists to find us and be part of these conversations. Thanks for listening.